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grosgrain and petersham


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#1 Terri

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 11:15 PM

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Regarding a recent thread that mentioned finishing the inside of a waistband with petersham or grosgrain, here is a photo of the two items.

They are similar but not the same thing. The ribbon at the top is what I would call grosgrain (although it is labelled "milliner's petersham" ), and the one below is what I would call petersham.

The grosgrain can be shaped into curves with the iron, the petersham cannot. The edges are different as you can see.

Maybe retailers or manufacturers are calling it all by one name these days....

#2 dpcoffin

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Posted 16 April 2012 - 03:49 AM

Terri, I believe you'll find that you've got these terms exactly backward. If you google "petersham ribbon", you'll find dozens of sources, articles and photos confirming that the material at the top in your photo is typically called, and is commonly sold as, petersham, or milliner's petersham, (as labeled). Also, it's uniformly maintained that it's petersham that can be shaped, not grosgrain. Eg:"This is a stiff ribbed ribbon, used to reinforce waistbands, bind corset edges or hat brims, or even as a foundation for neck ruff. ... Petersham is often confused with grosgrain ribbon but the important difference is that the petersham has a scalloped edge which allows you to shape the ribbon. Usually made out of 100% Rayon."

It's my understanding that "grosgrain", properly used, is a technical term describing the heavily-ribbed (gross-grained) appearance of fabrics (not just narrow ribbons) that comes from the different weights of the yarns used (heavy weft, light warp) in the weaving. Thus the term encompasses what is commonly called petersham, but in current regular use, esp. in the ribbon-craft world, grosgrain is more widely and loosely used to mean any ribbed-woven ribbon, as opposed to satin-woven, jacquard-woven, or non-woven types, and includes ribbons with stitched, reinforced or complex selvedged edges that preclude any possibility of shaping the ribbon. "Petersham" is used in various trades to specify gross-grained woven ribbon with a simple unstabilized selvedge that does allow the material to be shaped (it's the heavy uncovered weft that gives the "scalloped" look).

The material at the bottom in your photo is thus a complex type of grosgrain (since it's got a crosswise rib), but isn't petersham because it's got stabilized edges. I'd call it a type of "waistband stabilizer", since it appears to be specifically made for that purpose. I can imagine it being referred to as petersham in some shops or workrooms, and some general dictionaries simply define petersham as "a corded material for hatbands, the insides of belts, etc., or a narrow belting for the tops of skirts." But that's not really a precise enough definition for our needs…

However ill-informed my understanding of the history and manufacture of these items may be (I'm certainly no expert!), in practice and when searching out the stuff at the top in your photo, or any shapable ribbon for tailoring, millinery and other garment-related projects, I believe one will do best to use the term petersham. If they're looking for the stuff at the bottom, I'd say ask for neither petersham nor grosgrain; ask to see the waistband stabilizers.

dpc

#3 Terri

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Posted 16 April 2012 - 09:32 AM

I wonder if it is a term that gets mixed up in the British english/us english ?
We have always referred to it the other way around, and we are heavily influenced by the British techniques, and language in our shops.
Or it could just be an anomaly peculiar to the people I work with, including the milliners, who specifically refer to grosgrain ribbon as being shapable.
Anyway, depending on your desired stabilizing or shaping requirements, either could be used.

#4 Terri

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Posted 16 April 2012 - 09:49 AM

Here's something to add to the confusion

Or this
Or even this

I wonder why the use of both words?....

#5 CoronarJunkee

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Posted 18 April 2012 - 05:18 AM

Well...

In France, "grosgrain" means the kind of ribbon on top of Terri's picture. It's what's used in hats as well as in waistbands. Originally, it was made of cotton but it's hard to come by. I've first seen it when learning how to to make couture skirt waistbands. We would shape the grosgrain and the fabric waistband with the iron and then catchstitch the grosgrain inside the fashion fabric to be completely covered, like an interfacing.

The fabric that looks like grosgrain would be called "ottoman" in french. Or "faille" when the ribbing is very very subtle.

Just to add to the confusion.

Cheers to you

David

#6 Terri

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Posted 18 April 2012 - 08:28 AM

I checked with Linda Sparks of Fartingales, and she confirms that in sourcing these for her store, petersham is shapeable and grosgrain is not, but admits that the terms are often used iinterchangably, by manufacturers and users alike.

Yet, pretty much everyone, to a person, at work, would say that grosgrain is shapeable, but if you asked for waistband petersham, they would go for the rigid style pictured above, and if I ask someone to get petersham they won't bring me grosgrain...!!

As an aside, does anyone know the history of the word Petersham, it is a place, maybe where the ribbon was manufactured?

I wouldn't be confused by Ottoman or faille, because we use those terms exactly as you describe, David.

#7 Nula

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Posted 11 November 2013 - 04:35 PM

According to wiki:

Petersham is named after the eighteenth century English lord Viscount Petersham who invented an overcoat and breeches made of a special heavy woolen cloth with a round nap surface.

 

Petersham definitely sounds English, and grosgrain definitely French (gros means very large).  I suppose they both had milliners ribbons and perhaps they referred to the same thing and over time modern ribbons came about without the picot edge but were just called grosgrain because they have big ribs.

It's that picot edge of petersham that allows you to shape it for hats (and waistbands).   Where I am in Canada, grosgrain is ribbon that cannot be shaped.






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