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Sleeve fit questions


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#1 Che Pasticcio

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 01:46 PM

All of these shirts are the same pattern, the first two pictures being from a shirt I recently completed. I've included a blue shirt without the sleeves so you can see how the armhole fits. I'd like to know what you think about the folds. The sleeves fit comfortably; they don't feel tight. The shirt has 5" of ease in the chest. The scye has a 1/4" seam allowance. The sewing line of the scye measures about 21 3/4"

4" cap

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6 " cap here:

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Same 6" cap but I tried it with some silk shirting fabric from a shirt I found at a thrift store just to compare with the stiff nature of this muslin I'm using.

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back view

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Here's the fit without sleeves in different fabric but it's the same pattern. On a side note, my right shoulder doesn't hang that much lower than my left:

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I haven't tried placing the sleeve seam an inch or so forward of the side seam so the sleeve gets set in line with the natural hang of the arm. There's a thread about this that got me thinking I should try it. A shirt needs to have drape but what am I doing wrong that doesn't allow the fabric of the sleeve to drape this way?:

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Edited by Che Pasticcio, 30 April 2012 - 02:59 PM.


#2 Der Zuschneider

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 02:55 PM

Your right shoulder hangs 1cm. You could cut the sleeve cap higher... but a shirt is no lounge coat. Try another cutting system for the sleeve then.

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#3 Che Pasticcio

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 03:07 PM

Thanks for the reply, Zuch. Do you see anything in the pictures of the body that you think would throw the fit of the sleeve off? I'm trying to understand why those diagonal folds are there.

#4 posaune

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 07:16 PM

I think it is the sleeve pattern. If you cut a slim shirt (5") the pattern for the sleeves changes from sleeve for a normal draft. It is not as wide and the cap is more shaped and longer. You can see that the 6" cap is better than the 4". 6" is sufficient with a 21,75 " armhole but now you must maybe make the sleeve smaller and the crown shapier.
lg
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You could take a bit surplus out of the back armhole too. How deep is your armhole?

#5 rs232

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 08:33 PM

This is a pretty simple tradeoff: The bespoke white linen piece you posted has back pleats, and so can afford to have less at the back of the sleeve because the ease is in the pleats. If you don't want pleats, you need to cut a larger sleeve for arm mobility.

Bottom line: if you can't lean forward and touch your knees while keeping your legs and arms straight, you don't have enough ease across the back. If you took that fold at the lower shoulder blade out, you won't be able to touch your knees without it pulling uncomfortably across your back. That fold would be there on the bespoke linen shirt too, were it not folded into the pleats anyway - look at his back! He has an extra 7-8cm of ease tucked in those pleats.
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#6 Brave Tailor

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 09:14 PM

Your right shoulder hangs 1cm. You could cut the sleeve cap higher... but a shirt is no lounge coat. Try another cutting system for the sleeve then.


May be over gathered sleevehead - I see folds?
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#7 Che Pasticcio

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Posted 01 May 2012 - 02:22 AM

Heidi, here is the depth of scye:

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about the 6" cap for 5" of chest ease, the green sleeve was taken from a shirt whose shoulder seam sits at about the same spot as the shirt I've made yet has about 9 inches of ease in the chest.

What do you think about tilting the sleeve (sleeve seam 1 inch forward of side seam)?

rs232,

I agree about the back width; if It were any narrower it would be too snug. What is about the front then that allows the sleeve to drape nicely without folds?

Brave Tailor,

Are you pointing that out aside from the fact, or are you suggesting that a sleeve cap that fits properly at the ball of the shoulder can help eliminate the folds under at scye level?

Edited by Che Pasticcio, 01 May 2012 - 02:24 AM.


#8 Terri

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Posted 01 May 2012 - 02:49 AM

I agree with Posaune, it is the sleeve pattern.
As an aside, you think your shoulders are not far off from each other, but in fact you have a very developed left blade, and that may be something you will have to deal with in addition to your sleeve shape.

#9 rs232

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Posted 01 May 2012 - 09:08 AM

I agree about the back width; if It were any narrower it would be too snug. What is about the front then that allows the sleeve to drape nicely without folds?


Your arm sockets don't have the natural range of movement to be able to reach back behind you in the same way. Therefore, the front needs none of the ease across the chest that the back does, and hence it can be cut so as to fall cleanly.
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#10 Che Pasticcio

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Posted 01 May 2012 - 09:31 AM

Your arm sockets don't have the natural range of movement to be able to reach back behind you in the same way. Therefore, the front needs none of the ease across the chest that the back does, and hence it can be cut so as to fall cleanly.


Right, which I believe sits at a good spot on my draft.

Terri,

The right side of the yoke just below the collar does not sit properly on the neck and there is a slight drag I believe only in the front. I would like to take some pictures again in daylight to show these issues after I clear this up about the sleeve, which I think I have done so for the most part.

I reshaped the cap a little bit but it wasn't until I snipped the hem of the sleeve that I noticed a lot of the wrinkles went away. The seam line from the bicep line to the hem was too slanted - \ / - and brushing up against my inner arm too much. I will post pictures later tonight.

#11 Che Pasticcio

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Posted 01 May 2012 - 12:42 PM

Here it is with some changes I've made. I'm hoping it might look even a little better with fabric that isn't as rigid as this muslin. The muslin was bought locally and it's a little thicker and crisper than the stuff I've purchased from tailoring suppliers (bonus toilet paper shot in the back):

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Edited by Che Pasticcio, 01 May 2012 - 12:44 PM.


#12 posaune

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Posted 01 May 2012 - 07:02 PM

I attach a draft example for the different sleeves, red is a shirt sleeve for 20 cm ease shirt - the black for a 11 cm.
I think that your armhole is a bit deep. For a narrow shirt it should be not more than 2 cm under your armpit.
lg
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#13 el_guanche

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Posted 01 May 2012 - 07:07 PM

In the book of Metric Pattern Cutting from Aldrich you can find on page 139 (I guess, have to look it up) , a very nice solution of developing the sleeve pattern directly out of the armhole which workes quite well. After altering the shape of your shirt (which includes often alterations of the armhole), you just have to copie out the armhole and with a few simple touches, you get the right sleeve pattern.


So long
Basti

#14 Che Pasticcio

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Posted 02 May 2012 - 10:51 AM

In the book of Metric Pattern Cutting from Aldrich you can find on page 139 (I guess, have to look it up) , a very nice solution of developing the sleeve pattern directly out of the armhole which workes quite well. After altering the shape of your shirt (which includes often alterations of the armhole), you just have to copie out the armhole and with a few simple touches, you get the right sleeve pattern.


So long
Basti


I went to look at that book today at the library and it seems to be the opposite of what Heidi is saying.

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There were some pictures that included a proper shirt with a yoke, but the formula was more or less the same, which says to take 1/4th of the arm scye measurement (circumference) to establish the length of point 2 from point 1. With more chest ease, the arm scye measurement will increase and 1/4 of that number will be larger than a shirt with less chest ease resulting in a taller cap (point 2 from 1), but Heidi is saying that with more chest ease, the cap should be smaller.
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#15 el_guanche

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Posted 02 May 2012 - 04:05 PM

Yes, in my opinion, Heidi is also right. But I would give that construction a try. Don't forget, before constructing, to move the shoulder (that you had to move forward in your shirt pattern) back in that draft. Otherwise, it won't work.

Sleeves are more then theory and I've learned very much about them by just testing it again and again with different drafts.

Edited by el_guanche, 02 May 2012 - 04:15 PM.


#16 posaune

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Posted 02 May 2012 - 07:32 PM

but Heidi is saying that with more chest ease, the cap should be smaller.

No, I said the less chest ease the higher should the cap of the sleeve be (you had a 4" cap). The Aldrich draft shown here has a very nice shaped sleeve cap. Taking her draft in case of your circ your sleeve should have about 5 1/2 " cap height.
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#17 Che Pasticcio

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Posted 03 May 2012 - 02:04 PM

but Heidi is saying that with more chest ease, the cap should be smaller.

No, I said the less chest ease the higher should the cap of the sleeve be (you had a 4" cap). The Aldrich draft shown here has a very nice shaped sleeve cap. Taking her draft in case of your circ your sleeve should have about 5 1/2 " cap height.
lg
posaune


Right, I'm just saying the opposite of what follows your logic. More chest ease, smaller cap, less chest ease, taller cap.

The fit is improving but I'd like to experiment some more so I'll post some pictures sometime soon, hopefully on Friday or this weekend.

#18 rs232

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Posted 03 May 2012 - 08:35 PM

This is funny, I don't think of cap height per se, but match my draft to the scye laid flat, with the sleeve held away from the body at the desired angle, with added ease at the back of the shoulder. The amount of ease to add is determined by the amount of ease already integrated into the back piece, and the physiology of the arm and deltoid in question.




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