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What should I do to this yoke?


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#1 Che Pasticcio

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Posted 17 June 2012 - 07:22 AM

Hope everyone is doing well. Here are some pictures of some shirts I recently made. They’re all from the same front, back, and yoke pattern yet there seem to be some differences in the way they look. However, the sample shirt does include two one-inch pleats. I’ve circled an area on a white shirt I made on the right side of the yoke where the fabric doesn’t seem to rest on my shoulder as it does on the left side. It looks sort of strained as if it's pulling. I’m not sure what to do to remedy this:

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The fabric seems to dip in along the middle of the shoulder seam in this navy shirt:

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I made a shirt with a blue and white yoke to see how it would look because the fabric is a lot softer and elastic than the other shirts. It's smooth but follows my shoulder line too well, showing off those lovely clavicles. Please excuse the cheap looking collar I quickly made. It looks like the right side of the yoke is following the steeper slope of my right side while looking straighter on the left side. I imagine I could benefit greatly from a split yoke.

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Here are pictures of the pattern:

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The other fitting issue I’d like to fix is the drag on the right side of the body. It's been pointed out that my right shoulder sits lower:

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Here are two more shots of this shirt:

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I'm afraid pinching the end of the shoulder seam too much to eliminate the drag will cause the the shoulder seam to sit heavy at that point from too steep a slope.

I bought these fabrics locally and comparing them to higher end clothing, they don't feel luxurious at all. I'm not sure if this is playing a great deal in the fitting issue I have in the yoke, circled in the first picture. It isn't there on the sample shirt and the fabric used for that yoke feels and drapes a lot nicer than the fabric used for the completed shirts. I've been thinking it might be a wise idea to try basting the collar stand to see if I've been handling the fabric incorrectly and causing defects.

On a side note, I plan to extend the shoulder seam about 1/4" as well as the x-front about a 1/4" on each side, which is about 1/8" less than the change I made on the sample shirt. I feel the 3/8" addition on the shoulder seam was a little more than I wanted.

Edited by Che Pasticcio, 17 June 2012 - 07:41 AM.


#2 rs232

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Posted 17 June 2012 - 04:06 PM

White shirt: pull your shoulders back and stand up straighter, and you should notice the drag eminating from the neck disappear. THis should indicate that you have either cut your yoke for less hunched shoulders than yours, or alternatively your yoke is about 5mm too deep at the neck where the stand joins the yoke at the back.

Navy shirt: Easier to see that it's a "dip" and not a "drag", so this eliminates the "yoke too deep" theory. I also think the seam doesn't follow the natural curve of your trapezius, and since the seam is your chance to shape the shoulder line, I'd move it as shown in red.

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Also, I know that's a quick cheap collar, but I'd change your pattern to allow the collar to meet at the buttoning point and be less "flat". A common myth is that collars require "tie space" in the form of a gap. They don't. The space for the tie is formed by the collar roll, which manifests itself in a slightly curved leading edge (as shown). The tie knot fits under the collar in the cavity created by the "roll". The roll itself is created by a dart along the stand/fall seam, as shown on the pattern I've drawn on your chest. This also stops the collar looking lifeless, and helps it to curve around your neck should you chose to wear your shirt without a tie.

Striped shirt: If it's an aesthetic preference, that's fine, but you may like to roll your hem finer. Nice pattern matching on the stand. Front chest looks very roomy - you don't physically need that much accross the ribcage underneath the pecs (although if you're aiming for a drapey shirt, that's fine). Not sure what drag you're referring to around the shoulder area though?

Regarding fabrics, I find that rougher fabrics might not be as "nice" if you prefer finer ones, but they don't really affect fit. If you want to see a shirt that does require fine flowing cotton to drape correctly, take a look at some of the ones Cary Grant wore.

#3 Che Pasticcio

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Posted 18 June 2012 - 09:55 AM

Thanks for your reply. In the first paragraph, are you saying that the CB of the yoke should be raised 5mm?

My uncle has a shirt by Polo whose yoke fits very nicely and it does sit further back about where you have drawn the red line. My only concern with that is less yoke is seen from the front and I was under the impression it was proper or traditional to have more visible yoke from the front. I'd like to try a narrower, less sporty yoke so it sits higher and at the top of my shoulder, especially if I'll be reducing it as you've drawn. I don't want it to appear as though it's hanging back.

As for the stand/collar seam shape, the sewing line of the collar, leaf, fall, or what have you, is the same as the stand. So, no fullness is being introduced. Maybe I should try a straight stand? What does yours look like? I'll be posting a picture of it in a minute. I left my USB cable at home. I see what you're saying about the roll, but I imagine you would allow some tie space if you made a really closed spread like those long gangster collars that have very little space all the way through from where they join the stand to their tips.

I do plan on sewing narrower rolled hems. I bought an industrial hemmer foot locally and it fits my machine incorrectly. The needle is very close to the edge of the hole it passes on the foot and I think that's enough to throw it off. I folded these by hand.

The shoulder drag - I was referring to the waist but considering the shoulder area to remedy it. I suppose it's not a drag but an excess of fabric at the waist on the right side caused by my right side shoulder sitting lower. If I pinch at the shoulder seam it eliminates the excess at the waist but I'm afraid it will sit too heavy at the end of the shoulder seam if I sew it up this way. I should test instead of typing my worries. thankfully, my patience remains. I like the roomy fit below the chest.

Fabric - My concern about buying any more fabric locally is not the feel, but proper ironing. That white shirt with the convertible collar has a wrinkled appearance I can't iron. Two other fabrics I bought also do not iron well and remain wrinkled. It's like the fibers can't relax from being woven tightly. I bought the striped shirt online and it doesn't give me any trouble.

Edited by Che Pasticcio, 18 June 2012 - 09:58 AM.


#4 rs232

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Posted 18 June 2012 - 10:22 AM

Thanks for your reply. In the first paragraph, are you saying that the CB of the yoke should be raised 5mm?

No, that the drags could be caused by one of two things. The navy shirtt confirms it's the stooped nature of the shoulders, not the deep collar stand seam at the back.

My uncle has a shirt by Polo whose yoke fits very nicely and it does sit further back about where you have drawn the red line. My only concern with that is less yoke is seen from the front and I was under the impression it was proper or traditional to have more visible yoke from the front.

I can't comment on the aesthetic, but to me, it makes sense to have the seam where I have drawn if you're going to be shaping the garment there. If the seam were further forward, for correct fitting you would need to stretch the bias edge of the yoke so as to conform to the hollow of the clavicle.

As for the stand/collar seam shape, the sewing line of the collar, leaf, fall, or what have you, is the same as the stand. So, no fullness is being introduced. Maybe I should try a straight stand? What does yours look like? I'll be posting a picture of it in a minute. I left my USB cable at home. I see what you're saying about the roll, but I imagine you would allow some tie space if you made a really closed spread like those long gangster collars that have very little space all the way through from where they join the stand to their tips.

Whoops. That's why your collars are so flat. My stand is straight on the both edges except at the CF on the bottom where it has to conform to the contour of the front at the neck. And you're right, tie space is necessary for really close spread collars. I didn't think of that because no-one really seems to wear them anymore these days.

The shoulder drag - I was referring to the waist but considering the shoulder area to remedy it. I suppose it's not a drag but an excess of fabric at the waist on the right side caused by my right side shoulder sitting lower. If I pinch at the shoulder seam it eliminates the excess at the waist but I'm afraid it will sit too heavy at the end of the shoulder seam if I sew it up this way. I should test instead of typing my worries. thankfully, my patience remains. I like the roomy fit below the chest.

I guess you'll have to adjust your pattern then to compensate for the lower shoulder. Oh, and your sleeves look a bit short on that stripey shirt. I generally like the cuff to rest on my hand so that it doesn't ride up and disappear into my coat when I have my arms bent.

#5 Che Pasticcio

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Posted 18 June 2012 - 12:51 PM

Yup, I plan on lengthening the sleeve. Thanks for the reminder.

Here's my collar:

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Here's what I understand yours looks like:

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Do you start to curve the bottom at a certain spot? I've seen so many drafting books that insist on drawing the bottom line squared from the vertical CB line and then at a distance equal to the CB point to the shoulder seam on the yoke should one begin to curve the line towards CF. For example, if the CB to shoulder seam on the yoke equals 4", the bottom line of the stand should be squared from CB 4" and then begin to curve to CF. The Onishenko collar drafts are like this.

In the case of a band collar shirt, I think the collar stand I'm using works well. I did a few samples of straight bands and curved bands and my pattern hugged my neck better. However, in the case of adding a leaf to the stand, it doesn't introduce any fullness in sewing, as we've discussed.

Edited by Che Pasticcio, 18 June 2012 - 12:54 PM.


#6 rs232

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Posted 18 June 2012 - 08:40 PM

You should obviously use the stand you think fits your neck best, and you'd be a better judge than anyone just seeing a picture. However, you still need to adjust the fall. Take a look at some of the collar patterns in DPC's book, and you'll get an idea of the extra fullness in all of them. Just make up a quick practice collar, and compare. The extra fullness allows collar roll - here is an example of a prominent stripe that allows you to see the cut:

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Edited by rs232, 18 June 2012 - 08:44 PM.

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#7 Che Pasticcio

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Posted 19 June 2012 - 10:41 AM

Nice, I'll play around with the yoke and try a different stand to introduce fullness. By the way, what kind of thread (tex size) are you using for buttonholes? For sewing the shirt in general, are you use a DB or DA needle? I have a Juki DDL 5500 and it uses DB x 1 needles but I understand the DAs are for lightweight materials. The reason I ask is because I'm having trouble getting an aesthetically pleasing stitch on the bobbin side. I say aesthetically because it seems to be properly balanced, threads break together and I don't see a knot on either side, but it doesn't look nice on the bobbin side, especially when sewing along the weft:

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The fabric looks really strange around the thread. I'm using Gutermann's suggested thread/needle combinations, mara 150 with a 70/10 needle (DB X 1) so I wonder if DA needles would work better. Apparently, my machine comes in a lightweight model. This one is supposedly the medium weight model, DDL 5500N. I believe the lightweight is called DDL 5500NA, although I bet they simply differ by adjustable mechanical differences, like height of feed dogs or the needle bar height.

Edited by Che Pasticcio, 19 June 2012 - 10:49 AM.


#8 rs232

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Posted 20 June 2012 - 03:52 PM

Looks like the needle is breaking the cloth at the seam when it goes through, which I'd put down to a blunt needle, or a needle that is too thick, or maybe just that your tensions, although balanced, is too tight on both sides. I'm not an industrial machine expert, and there are people here who have spent far more time on them, so someone may provide a better suggestion.

#9 Che Pasticcio

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Posted 22 June 2012 - 09:18 AM

Thanks again for yoir input. Anyone else have any thoughts on the way the fabric looks?

#10 Sanguis Mortuum

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Posted 25 June 2012 - 08:55 PM

Have you tried varying the tensions to see what difference it makes?

#11 Che Pasticcio

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Posted 06 September 2012 - 05:28 AM

Here are a few shots of a shirt I recently made. I have made about 4 others in the last few weeks with the same pattern for front/back/yoke, but with different collars and cuffs. I moved the shoulder seam at the armscye point more forward by adding to the yoke making the slope less steep. This seems to follow my shoulder line better; a more equal amount of width of yoke can be seen from the front. This particular shirt has a 6" cap.

There is still a fitting issue that I can't seem to fix in the right side yoke. The fabric doesn't lie smoothly as it does on my left side. I would also say that the fabric on the front part of the shirt just under the shoulder seam and close to the curve of the neck seems a little strained. It doesn't seem to rest on my body as well as it does on the left side. What further confuses me is that some of the shirts show very less difference between left and right side yokes while this shirt is more apparent. Looking forward to suggestions.

Thanks!

I increased the contrast to bring out the defect more because it's hard to capture.
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I turned my head to the right to expose it here as well. I understand wrinkles must exist from motion but the left side of the yoke doesn't get affected when I move my head to the left.
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Left Side:
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The fabric is a little strained on the right side just under the shoulder seam beside the neck area preventing it from resting on my body. Not sure if this is a sign that could help fix the issue on the yoke.
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It looks like there are drags on both front and back portions of the shirt but in this side shot the side seam looks straight which would make me think it's balanced. Is this an indication then that both front and back are short or is it possible x-front and x-back are too far out causing drags? There is only 3" of suppression from chest to waist.
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I like extended band collars a lot
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Edited by Che Pasticcio, 06 September 2012 - 06:35 AM.


#12 rs232

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Posted 11 September 2012 - 11:11 PM

If your yoke pattern is symmetrical, and you haven't made any sewing or cutting errors, then I'd say that your right trapezius is less developed than your left. Have you ever broken your collarbone? You'll need an asymmetrical yoke to fix it, because your right shoulder is clearly lower.

You have drags on the body because the armscye doesn't fit "around" your shoulder, and the armscye doesn't fit because the body is too wide, especially under the armpit. Post a picture of your pattern and I'll show you roughly what I mean.

Nice work on that shoulder seam, cuff, and placket. Very neat; well done.
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#13 posaune

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Posted 12 September 2012 - 02:06 AM

If a hanging side is as severe as yours, the neck is also "hanging". I attach a pic hanging side done from front neckhole. (do the same in back)
See how the neck changes?
lg
posaune
Posted Image
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#14 Che Pasticcio

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Posted 14 September 2012 - 05:14 AM

Thanks for the sewing compliments. I'll be able to sew now with less artificial light now that I've moved my machine upstairs away from the basement and in front of a window that receives proper light.

right about my right shoulder having less mass. To go off on a slight tangent but still relating to the mass difference, I've been correcting a vest pattern whose CFs were swinging away from having too much CF length.It didn't turn out as noticeable in this picture, but the right side CF swings further away than the left side, since I have less mass on the right side.
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I was able to fix it. I bought this fabric for three dollars and the pattern is slightly off grain but I'm just using it to test the pattern changes. I didn't press any seams and didn't shrink any excess anywhere formed by the darts so I think some of those drags around the dart might be from that, plus there's no interfacing to give it body. I'm including these pictures to reiterate the mass difference. I changed the neck point placement drastically by moving it 1.5" toward the CF line to clear up the left side but had to move it an additional 5/8" to clear up the right side.

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The change I'm talking about is explained on Terri's blog and this is the picture she drew to describe it(thanks, Terri : p):

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Here are the patterns as requested, rz. I'm thinking moving the neckpoint away from CF is the answer but that contradicts Posaune's suggestion. It would cause the neckline to lengthen slightly and it would reduce the armhole a little causing it to fit better. Is this what you had in mind to make the armhole fit better?
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Here is the neck point relationship.
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Posaune, do you think it's the case that my shoulder is dropped or is it more a mass issue on my shoulder? The information I used from Terri's picture to correct the hang of vest doesn't include dropping the scye depth or dropping the neck point as you've shown in your illustration. Instead, I moved horizontally perpendicular to CF and pivoted off of that to redraw the neckline, shoulder, and blend in the scye. This is difficult to write although I know everyone is familiar with this procedure.

Edited by Che Pasticcio, 14 September 2012 - 05:18 AM.

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#15 posaune

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Posted 14 September 2012 - 09:08 PM

The alteration from Terri is ment to alter(in my opion) a long front length she had with a special pattern. (we had this discussion - I think - named crooked?? can of worms, please - do not open!)
It is done only to the front and shortens the front length and straighten the armhole. It is done only in the front. I use this when dealing with a bend forward posture.
The alteration I suggested is for a hanging side. It is done in front and back so the front and back neckpoint moves a bit.
If you take your pics and do some lines you will see that your right side is hanging and your neck is not symmetrical.
Yes, you right side has less muscles too. Very good to see in the front pic.
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This pic as a bit "Verzerrung" from the camera lens but it may be sufficient to show what I mean.
lg
Posaune

Edited by posaune, 14 September 2012 - 09:12 PM.


#16 Schneidergott

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Posted 14 September 2012 - 10:06 PM

Have you tried to pin that fold which is showing on your right side? Your neck appears to be tilted towards the right, so the neck hole is too tight (posaune's fix for the shoulder slope will fix that, too).
Mark the amount you pinned away with chalk, draw a new neck line and re-attach (baste on) the collar.

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#17 Che Pasticcio

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Posted 16 September 2012 - 01:19 AM

Schneider -That doesn't seam to clear up any drags at the side of the body though.

Posaune, is this also done to the back or only the front and yoke? And it looks like the chest width becomes less in the front illustration you posted. Does the smaller chest width blend to the original side seam or do i draw a new side seam ?

Edit: also, if I do this to the yoke, is there any way to avoid the design of the pattern looking asymmetric? Am I simply best off cutting bias yokes? If I cut on a stripe, it will appear to run off the yoke at CB.

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Edited by Che Pasticcio, 16 September 2012 - 07:33 AM.


#18 posaune

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Posted 16 September 2012 - 06:10 PM

I do it with stripes like this
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You see the red is the hanging side yoke. If you cut the back yoke like this - no problem.
I do not like splitted yokes.
Yes it is a bit smaller at bust level. If you don't want this - you take another method.
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But here you haveto recut the neck at the hanging side
this
lg
heidi

Edited by posaune, 16 September 2012 - 06:14 PM.





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