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Italian sleeve crowns


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#1 Schneidergott

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Posted 19 June 2012 - 07:33 PM

The company I work for now also offers a hand made suit from an Italian company. Nothing weird about that... But!
In the instruction booklet you'll find pictures with names of the available shoulder/ sleeve crown options:

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What worries me is that the most roped shoulder is called "Neapolitan". This is especially strange since on certain fora it is usually the "un-constructed" (no shoulder pads) version, preferable with some folds or pleats (spalla camicia).
Since the naming was done by the Italian manufacturer I am wondering if, over the years, the names and types got confused. Or is it because it's a manufacturer from the North of Italy and they don't know what they are talking about???
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"Nur der ist Meister seiner Kunst, der immer sucht, das Gute zu verbessern und niemals glaubt, das Beste schon zu haben."
"Only he is a master of his art who always seeks to improve the good and never believes to have the best already"

 


#2 Martin Stall

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Posted 19 June 2012 - 07:41 PM

Nah. It's a clever ploy designed to revive forum threads. Smart. ;)
Sure, I believe your work rocks, but... have you considered, how are you going to sell that stuff?

http: under construction...

#3 Schneidergott

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Posted 20 June 2012 - 04:32 PM

I have no intention to raise the view count and/ or cause the forum to collapse.

It's just that the people demanding a "Neapolitan" sleeve only know what's written on the internet, so I am afraid that it will be a long and fruitless discussion with each customer.
What is called the "soft" version might be closer to the "Neapolitan" style, since it's similar to the version Kiton uses.
But I guess there is not just one "Neapolitan" sleeve?

"Nur der ist Meister seiner Kunst, der immer sucht, das Gute zu verbessern und niemals glaubt, das Beste schon zu haben."
"Only he is a master of his art who always seeks to improve the good and never believes to have the best already"

 


#4 rs232

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Posted 20 June 2012 - 07:19 PM

Maybe the italians got the German translation wrong? :) (Or did your company translate the italian incorrectly?)

#5 Nishijin

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Posted 20 June 2012 - 07:53 PM

I think this has already been discussed at length.
Here is what I've been explained by an Italian guy who knows anything that is to be known about cloth and style.

A Napolitan gentleman would always ask a proper shoulder on his business suits. Exactly what is called "Napolitan" on the leeflet above. The soft and unconstructed shoulder are for leisure cloths only, for sport jackets to be worn on sunday. Not for anything even slightly formal.

Of course, a proper gentleman doesn't need to work to earn a living. So for some people, life is always leisure. To show this, they took the fashion of getting "leisure" shoulder on all their coats, to show to the world that they are gentlemen of leisure and don't need to work.

Then, the iGents noticed it, took it for a neapolitan fashion, and thought it was the thing to do on their own wardrobe. Thus came the myth of the "napolitan shoulder".


The leeflet coming from an italian tailoring factory, they call things proper. A unstructured shoulder is made for unstructured garments. Not for business suits. And the napolitan shoulder is named correctly. They are people knowing what they talk about, not iGent marketoids. They have to catter to italian customers who know better.
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#6 napoli

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Posted 20 June 2012 - 09:26 PM

Great post thank you, all my suits are the waterfall one called Mappina shoulder ( first and third on the picture ), Who said are not suitable for business? You should travel to Italy then and have a look to the millionaires or salesman.

But damn, where are the instructions to do them? This post is only for the sleeve pictures I already knew and wear?

Edited by napoli, 20 June 2012 - 09:27 PM.


#7 Nishijin

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Posted 20 June 2012 - 09:56 PM

Who said are not suitable for business? You should travel to Italy then and have a look to the millionaires or salesman.


I repeated here what has been explained to me about the origin of this fashion.
You know, there used to be a time when the lounge suit itself was considered improper for business.
12 years ago, wearing a unconstructed coat for business was "frowned upon". I speak from experience, since I didn't care and did it anyway, but this earned me some comments... Today, who cares ? Anybody would be glad because you are wearing a tie. So who would say your shoulder isn't the right kind for business ?


But damn, where are the instructions to do them? This post is only for the sleeve pictures I already knew and wear?

This post is to show something called "napolitan shoulder" which is quite the opposite of what is usually called "napolitan shoulder" on the forums and blogs.
This means that when a customer comes and ask a "napolitan shoulder", it is important to be sure that everybody speaks the same language, or he might get something quite different than what he thought.

We are not in the technical section of the forum. I guess all relevant information on how to cut and make those sleeves have already been published, since if it's not here, I don't know where I learned...
http://www.paulgrassart.com

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#8 Der Zuschneider

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Posted 21 June 2012 - 12:23 AM

So napolitaissh is just with a bigger rope then.
www.berlinbespokesuits.com

#9 napoli

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Posted 21 June 2012 - 01:31 AM

I repeated here what has been explained to me about the origin of this fashion.
You know, there used to be a time when the lounge suit itself was considered improper for business.
12 years ago, wearing a unconstructed coat for business was "frowned upon". I speak from experience, since I didn't care and did it anyway, but this earned me some comments... Today, who cares ? Anybody would be glad because you are wearing a tie. So who would say your shoulder isn't the right kind for business ?



This post is to show something called "napolitan shoulder" which is quite the opposite of what is usually called "napolitan shoulder" on the forums and blogs.
This means that when a customer comes and ask a "napolitan shoulder", it is important to be sure that everybody speaks the same language, or he might get something quite different than what he thought.

We are not in the technical section of the forum. I guess all relevant information on how to cut and make those sleeves have already been published, since if it's not here, I don't know where I learned...



Oh,


What does the " mass " understand for neapolitan shoulder then I am curious ? For me are those 3, the Manica insellata, the manica mappina and the spalla camicia.

#10 Nishijin

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Posted 21 June 2012 - 02:55 AM

In France at least, everytime someone tells me about "napolitan shoulder", he means spalla camicia.

I agree with you that the 3 kinds you list are all napolitan shoulders...


BTW, you say "manica insellata" ? I'm curious, since it is the shoulder (spalla) which is saddle-like, not the sleeve (manica).
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#11 Schneidergott

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Posted 21 June 2012 - 04:44 AM

Who said are not suitable for business? You should travel to Italy then and have a look to the millionaires or salesman.


In our Frankfurt shop the "spalla camicia" is often requested for business suits by young bankers and consultants.
What is called the "Neapolitan" shoulder in the images to me looks like the French shoulders of Yves Saint-Laurent, some North Italian RTW companies and it was the fashion during the 70's in Germany and other places. And since tailors from Naples were inspired by British/ SR tailors I guess we could easily call it "English" shoulders?

As far as I understood the concept of the handmade MTM from Italy, the actual coat is always made in the same way, only the shoulders/ sleeve constructions change. So even the one with the strong roping is not a spalla insellata.

I watched the film "Matrimonio all' italiana" and it has some street scenes from actual Naples and the men all wear terribly wide and boxy coats with huge sleeves.
Marcello Mastroiani wears some gorgeous suits in that film and only one of them (a yellowish gabardine, if I recall correctly) had the manica camicia/ mappina. All the other suits had clean sleeves.

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Still, when you search for "neapoiltan shoulder" the majority of hits will lead to the manica camicia...

"Nur der ist Meister seiner Kunst, der immer sucht, das Gute zu verbessern und niemals glaubt, das Beste schon zu haben."
"Only he is a master of his art who always seeks to improve the good and never believes to have the best already"

 


#12 ladhrann

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Posted 21 June 2012 - 04:53 AM

When you guys mention 'spalla camicia' do you mean the last illustration above i.e. the ''Unconstructed mit Falten''? I've heard that referred to as the ''waterfall shoulder'.

Another problem with the use and perhaps abuse of terms by customers is that beacuse so much of the trade is non-standard tailors in different places use different terms. So I've gone into a tailor to ask for a 'roped shoulder' and after much confusion being told it was a 'raised sleevehead', another one was 'swelled edges' vs. 'pick-stitching' vs. 'saddle-stitching'.

#13 greger

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Posted 23 June 2012 - 08:37 AM

lahrann has got it right. Names are regional. And, further, time stamped. In 30 years from now will the names we read on the internet forums today be the same?

It doesn't matter what name a customer uses but that you understand what he wants. Tailors have dealt with different names from customers for hundreds of years.
In that since there is nothing to correct of the name when a customer comes with a different name. If there is one thing about tailoring, and that is, being flexible.

#14 carpu65

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Posted 06 July 2012 - 11:57 AM

What worries me is that the most roped shoulder is called "Neapolitan". This is especially strange since on certain fora it is usually the "un-constructed" (no shoulder pads) version, preferable with some folds or pleats (spalla camicia).
Since the naming was done by the Italian manufacturer I am wondering if, over the years, the names and types got confused. Or is it because it's a manufacturer from the North of Italy and they don't know what they are talking about???


Is very simple :) ,are all three Neapolitans.
n-1 is spalla-camicia shoulder.
n-2 is spalla insellata shoulder.
n-3 is manica a mappina shoulder.
In 70s in Naples the spalla insellata was very in fashion (like today the spalla camicia),so is probable that the manufacturer from north italy call it "Neapolitan" for the old times; in 70s THAT was the Neapolitan shoulder.
P.S.
The suits that Marcello Mastroianni worn in "Matrimonio all'Italiana" are not from Naples, but from Rome.
The suits were cuts by Zenobi,a famous roman tailor of 60s (and one of the tailors of Marcello in real life).
The name of Zenobi is also in the movie's credits.
Zenobi was not Neapolitan but he was from Trieste.

#15 carpu65

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Posted 06 July 2012 - 12:36 PM

I watched the film "Matrimonio all' italiana" and it has some street scenes from actual Naples and the men all wear terribly wide and boxy coats with huge sleeves.

Many part of the movie is set in immediate post war,and many
characters belong to low working class.
De Sica did casting in neo-realistic way,and have chosen many peoples with "interesting faces" in quartieri spagnoli (the old and popular Naples).
Said this,Naples is a city terribly conservative,and in 60s many second choice tailors cut suits and coats like in 30s.
But in that times the first rate tailorshops make a very clean and modern suit:

Posted Image

Sharp and clean,isn't?
Renato Ciardi,a excelent Neapolitan tailor,heir of the great Angelo Blasi,today said that "la sartoria non fa moda" (" bespoke not follow the fashion change)...but in 60s he seemed not think so...is true Mr Ciardi?

Posted Image

#16 Nishijin

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Posted 06 July 2012 - 07:09 PM

Thanks Carpu for historical details, that's interesting.

Fashion was created by bespoke tailors and dressmakers. How else sell garments when you make them to last a lifetime ? :Big Grin:
http://www.paulgrassart.com

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#17 napoli

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Posted 07 July 2012 - 12:51 AM

Carpu nice answers,

I was about to write that the Mastroiani jackets didnīt look neapolitan, but you did better than me the job.

#18 fabeca

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Posted 04 September 2012 - 10:39 AM

does anyone knows if for drafting and cutting a spalla camicia cut, or unconstructe shoulder I need to take anything in cosideration? or where I can find info about how to cut it?




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