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Al Bazar And The Milanese Double Breasted Jacket With Contrasting Pants


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#19 Martin Stall

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Posted 25 July 2012 - 07:55 PM

This thread has seen some very valid comments, a few snide remarks and some comments that are not exactly in good taste. I've been watching this one, and I'd like to to just say:

Let's keep it nice, shall we, chaps?

Thanks.
Sure, I believe your work rocks, but... have you considered, how are you going to sell that stuff?

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#20 jukes

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Posted 25 July 2012 - 10:28 PM

If some chap wants to cut his jacket short, that is his perogative. If he wants to wear wrist bands, contrast his pants, carry a man bag, wear jeans cut high on the cuff, wear patent leather in the afternoon, SAME SAME. As tailors, your job is to do what they ask. You are a conduit for their ideas. That is the problem with the vast majority of armchair presidents that exist on this forum. They think they are the arbiters of style and good taste, but in essence they are couch potatoes. I am sure you all accept the tuxedo jacket in its current form, perhaps you might have had a word with the Prince of Wales to tell him NOT to advise Mr Potter to go to Henry Poole and Co at the time.... Fashion, tailoring, permanent style, whatever you want to call it, ALL OF IT is in a state of flux and constantly in evolving. Those that cannot accept that will be reduced to slinging shit on this forum. My suggestion is, if you want to prove to the world you know better, do it and post it on this forum. I will be happy to watch and offer some genuine criticism if I find fault, which I probably won't, since you people know everything.


I think what your looking for is a so called designer, and there are plenty of those around. Personally if you walked in my shop with that attitude, the only thing i would show you is the door. Contrary to your beliefs we are not here to serve you, as we are not slaves, but craftsmen and, if you don't respect us, why should we respect you.

#21 Nishijin

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Posted 25 July 2012 - 11:29 PM

Atgemis,

I have zero problems with people liking short coats, extra-slim trousers, shoes without socks, even wrists. I don't really care, and some styles I even like. And they make great pictures.

But as a young tailor, I wonder if those guys are saving tailoring or rather hitting nails on its coffin. As prominent members of the fashion community, they show to everybody interested in fashion how garments should look like. There used to be a time when fashion leaders, including couturiers and shop owners, took great care to always wear not only new styles, but also perfect fit and perfect making.
On those pictures, I don't look at wrists or men bag. What I look at are garments that don't fit and are not well made.

Why should we tailor keep doing hard work to make lapels that keep their shape and fronts without ripples when now everybody seem to think that those "details" are not important, and only "silhouette" matters ? When in time did quality of cut and making became irrelevant ?

I was looking this morning at Thimoty Everest's blog, with a dinner jacket made for a costume event in a blue camo fabric, with light-reflecting pipings. Not exactly the usual dinner jacket, you can see. I found it funny, and I like the fact that some people still bespoke garments for fun and one-time events, not only DJ that are expected to wear a lifetime. But I also liked the fact that although it is a costume for 1 night only, it was made to the same standards as any garments from Everest's.

What a difference with those italian showmen who dress in loud styles, that they should expect some people call costume, and don't seam to care for actual, matter-of-fact quality.


So, yes, my job as a tailor is to do my best to deliver what the customer asks. I have professional duty to advise him and try to stear him away from styles that are not flattering to him (and yes, it is tailor's duty to do it, and has always been in tailoring's history, and believe it or not, but some men do ask for our advise). But ultimately, the decision is the customer's. But our job is not only to do what we are asked for, but also to do it well. When I look at fashion pictures on the usual fashion photography blogs, I'm afraid that many people forgot what "doing it well" means.
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#22 Nishijin

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Posted 25 July 2012 - 11:35 PM

I will be happy to watch and offer some genuine criticism if I find fault, which I probably won't, since you people know everything.


How arrogant this is ! I don't offer criticism about your bows, since it is not my area of expertise. If you want to criticise someone else's work, the bare minimum is to have a real understanding of what things are about. As far as I know, you know little about tailoring.

You should know that people who don't cheer with the crowd are not necessarily wrong, nor are know-it-all. Sometimes, they just know better than the common man, and see and dare say that the emperor is naked. But not cheering with the crowd is never a popular attitude, is it ?
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#23 greger

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Posted 26 July 2012 - 10:22 AM

I think what your looking for is a so called designer, and there are plenty of those around. Personally if you walked in my shop with that attitude, the only thing i would show you is the door. Contrary to your beliefs we are not here to serve you, as we are not slaves, but craftsmen and, if you don't respect us, why should we respect you.


Perhapes you don't understand Atgemis, but would you say that Nutter was totally wrong? He catered to and pushed hip clothes. I'm sure back then many tailors were apalled a what he was doing even though he did it in high class with fittings that no factory can do and 60% of the people can't pay for custom by tailors. In the past only the rich could pay for fashion clothes and some of them were wild. Anyway, the MTOC, a guide for tailors by tailors, certainly recognize fashions and the need thereof and that the poorer are lucky to buy even if it does not fit. There are a number of reaasons for clothes and one of them is fun, zaney, etc. and the fact is history shows that tailors have made these wild hip clothes as part of their job. Only when there are lots of tailors and lots of customers are there tailors who specialize, otherwise they are making whatever so they can bring home the butter and bread.

Being around painters, artist, my whole life I learned very quickly that they agreed with past artist that what they made was good art even though modern art has changed. Therefore, short coats of the past was of good tailoring and it is still good tailoring today if that is were young people want to take it today, then that is correct and so on, including new ideas. When my granddad started tailoring back in the 1890 the rules of clothes were were different than 50 years later and 50 years before when he began, and so on. That means that the wise tailor pays attention to the cultural changes that change the clothes and the tailor should be able to step into the future better than factory clothes makers. If the culture of the clothes you grew up with is gone or going then it is history or becoming history that belongs in the thearter.
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#24 jukes

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Posted 26 July 2012 - 03:51 PM

Greger


Having made for most of the famous pop stars in the 70,s. I think i do understand the need for pushing the boundaries in fashion. The difference between Tommy Nutters work and the work displayed in this thread is immense, and an insult to Mr Nutter.
Would the same people who walk into a tailors and demand the tailor does exactly what they demand, talk the same way to a surgeon or a lawyer, no. A tailor takes a lifetime to build a reputation, a customer with the attitude that the tailor must do as he is told, no matter what, is extremely disrespectful and rude. The idea is to work WITH the customer not FOR the customer.

#25 napoli

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Posted 27 July 2012 - 01:41 AM

Atgemis,

I have zero problems with people liking short coats, extra-slim trousers, shoes without socks, even wrists. I don't really care, and some styles I even like. And they make great pictures.

But as a young tailor, I wonder if those guys are saving tailoring or rather hitting nails on its coffin. As prominent members of the fashion community, they show to everybody interested in fashion how garments should look like. There used to be a time when fashion leaders, including couturiers and shop owners, took great care to always wear not only new styles, but also perfect fit and perfect making.
On those pictures, I don't look at wrists or men bag. What I look at are garments that don't fit and are not well made.

Why should we tailor keep doing hard work to make lapels that keep their shape and fronts without ripples when now everybody seem to think that those "details" are not important, and only "silhouette" matters ? When in time did quality of cut and making became irrelevant ?

I was looking this morning at Thimoty Everest's blog, with a dinner jacket made for a costume event in a blue camo fabric, with light-reflecting pipings. Not exactly the usual dinner jacket, you can see. I found it funny, and I like the fact that some people still bespoke garments for fun and one-time events, not only DJ that are expected to wear a lifetime. But I also liked the fact that although it is a costume for 1 night only, it was made to the same standards as any garments from Everest's.

What a difference with those italian showmen who dress in loud styles, that they should expect some people call costume, and don't seam to care for actual, matter-of-fact quality.


So, yes, my job as a tailor is to do my best to deliver what the customer asks. I have professional duty to advise him and try to stear him away from styles that are not flattering to him (and yes, it is tailor's duty to do it, and has always been in tailoring's history, and believe it or not, but some men do ask for our advise). But ultimately, the decision is the customer's. But our job is not only to do what we are asked for, but also to do it well. When I look at fashion pictures on the usual fashion photography blogs, I'm afraid that many people forgot what "doing it well" means.




:clapping: :clapping: :clapping: :clapping: :clapping: :clapping:

I am on a war against tackiness, and those of the door of Pitti with jacket, ties, shorts ( I mean real shorts, not a bit short cuff trousers ) and no socks really put me sick. Bunch of pretentious .

#26 Nishijin

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Posted 27 July 2012 - 02:16 AM

I don't have any problem with people wearing shorts, jacket and tie. I don't like it, I wouldn't wear it nor advise someone else to do it, but if they like it, then it's a free world, they do what they want.

The problem is not about style, it is about quality. If they want to wear shorts with a jacket, then please wear a nicely made pair of shorts with a good jacket, not stuff full of tailoring problems.
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#27 napoli

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Posted 27 July 2012 - 06:15 AM

I don't have any problem with people wearing shorts, jacket and tie. I don't like it, I wouldn't wear it nor advise someone else to do it, but if they like it, then it's a free world, they do what they want.

The problem is not about style, it is about quality. If they want to wear shorts with a jacket, then please wear a nicely made pair of shorts with a good jacket, not stuff full of tailoring problems.



If those *Š&% whatever fashion is on at the moment donīt how how to dress properly but for a carnival, do you really think they would be able to know what is a right tailored garment?

#28 carpu65

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Posted 27 July 2012 - 10:22 AM

Until now I used to believe that Italian man want to look good. Clearly, those days are gone.
When did that "wearing too tight things" happen? All that pulling and gaping makes me sad...:Cry:


SSSSSSSTT.... :Whistle: i tell you a secret.
The Italian man not have never want to look good.
He want to look.... cool and sexy.
And he want look cool and sexy for a only reason:
WOMEN.
These poors guys are sure that with these ugly and ridicolous suits are sexy and cool.

Welcome to Italian tailoring.


You joke??
This is only crap pret a porter.
For Milanese style go to Caraceni,Livio Colombo,Tindaro De Luca,Bombino,and many others.

And for good ready to wear go to Bardelli,Red and bue,Tincati....
http://www.mbardelli.com/

#29 Atgemis

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Posted 27 July 2012 - 11:50 AM

I will tell you a little story since now I have your attention. There is a tailor in Sydney, he is probably the best in the business, he does everything by hand, he is trained like no other man I have met, he is old and he is stubborn and he won't cut just any old suit and when the suit is finished it is elegantly made, from the top stitch, the full hand stitched canvas, the hand padding in the shoulders, but when you step into that suit you look like a man from the 1950's - But you know it's made by one of the best because the man than makes it looks a little like a slob, has bad posture, speaks Italian when he mutters something under his breath and his trousers don't fit.

by contrast, there is another guy, he is younger, much younger, he is stylish himself, he has contacts to all the right people, he cuts the suits according to what the customers want, the place is a hive of activity and business is such that he has to knock people back and maybe he doesn't have the knowledge of the old dude but his place is airy and light and white and people like going there. Now, I know which one makes the better quality suit, but Nishijin, that guy will die without passing on his skills and the people that could have used them, the guy with the light white space and bright white customers, will never get the benefit because the stubborn old guy can't be told a thing.

You say you are like a gifted surgeon.... ever met an old one that won't adapt to the latest surgical techniques and leaves a big big scar each time he does an operation because he refuses to change his technique? I have, and so I live with that scar on my shoulder. Adapt, change, be relevant or else die and be reduced to writing tid bits on this forum. Oh and by the way, you are so welcome to critique my bow ties as I am always looking for new production methods and I my website is always open to people looking to create their own custom designs - they just have to pay for it.

Regards,
N

Edited by Atgemis, 27 July 2012 - 11:56 AM.


#30 Atgemis

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Posted 27 July 2012 - 12:03 PM

I don't claim to be a tailor, but here is a jacket I did with my tailor which I designed with him and sourced all the products for. Feel free to remind me that I know nothing about tailoring if you feel you can find enough fault with it. And the link to that article I posted here:

Posted Image

Posted Image

Posted Image

#31 jukes

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Posted 27 July 2012 - 03:29 PM

Jacket is ok, does it fit ? (cant tell on a dummy) do you find you sweat when its worn, (could be the polyester lining.) What canvases were used or was it fused? All good tailors use silk to top stitch, nothing special there.

#32 Atgemis

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Posted 27 July 2012 - 03:57 PM

Lining is great. It's poly but I don't feel any sweat from it. It's certainly not silk, that is by far the hottest lining I have ever had. It fits well, only I fluctuate on the scales like a yo yo from time to time, that's not the tailors fault though.

Now, regarding Everest and Nishijin's comments..... I want to know if this finish and detail is to the satisfaction of the other tailors on this blog:

Posted Image

#33 jukes

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Posted 27 July 2012 - 08:26 PM

Prefer the cuff buttons to "kiss". Is the piping cut on the bias?

#34 Nishijin

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Posted 27 July 2012 - 09:14 PM

Piping is made from light-reflecting fabric. I don't know if anybody here has tried to use this, I've tried myself (for a future project that I never find the time to do). It is very stiff, and bias or no bias, there is no way to make a nice curve with it. It was never intended for this kind of use. Today, I still don't know if I will use it, or change for some Dashing Tweed that could do the same job but get a nicer result. The look is not the same at all, though.

Buttons : we don't know what the customer asked. I like buttons to touch myself, but several of my customers ask me to space them a little, just as on this cuff.

And on a general opinions on this coat from Mr Everest, I say that the job is pretty good, you think that the fabric is heavy camo cotton, which is a damn bad fabric for tailoring, it is a nightmare giving shape to it.


Atgemis, about your coat :
1/ it looks nice, but since it is on a dummy, there is no way to know how it really fits. From general look, it seems your tailor know his craft.
Polyester lining, seriously ? Why not something better ? I like silk, but you are right it is hot, so I do not use it standard. In my opinion, best lining are cupro(Bemberg) mix with viscose. Pure Bemberg frequently is too crisp, hence the mix with viscose. For summer coats, there is a kind of very light Bemberg that breeze nicely. Since it is very light, it is slightly transparent, so I use it only for summer coats. Ermazine is a good brand for summer linings.
Polyester lining doesn't age nice, it feels hotter than better linings, and you're always at risk of surprises with the iron.

I do like the lapel which are nicely worked to follow curve. Not everybody does this today (and not every cloth allow it anyway). It's nice to see it done well.

Silk topstitching : yes, that's nice. It is also quite standard work, I don't know any tailor who uses something else for topstitching. I would even say that this looks like silk buttonhole twist, which can be used for topstiching, but is a bold style (in this case, since it is contrast, it is logical to use it). The thread is so big. For topstiching, a thinner thread is usually recommended, so that it doesn't show that much (when you want something more subtle).




About your knowledge about tailoring : I don't want to be rude, but there is a huge difference between being someone who commissions a coat and someone who cuts and makes it. I'm sure you've learned a lot about tailoring and are an educated customer. But as fas as I know, you are not a tailor.
Many people like cars, and are quite knowledgable about them, with some of them having a good understanding of its technical parts. That does not make them engineers specialised in motorisation or other higly technical parts of a car. When a specialist explains me something, I listen to them, I don't answer that I know better since I had a course about car motorisation when at engineering school. Same for tailoring. Even before I decided to become a tailor, when I commissioned a coat, I expressed my views about it, but I didn't think I knew better than my tailor, and ultimately I trusted him for technical things, and I listened with car his views on design (though I could disagree sometimes, since I was the one wearing the garment, not him). Hell, even today it's my job, I still listen to him since he is more experienced and knows a lot of things I don't.

And no, I won't comment your bow ties. I pnly made a few of them for fun, but I honnestly know very little about them, so I don't see how I could say what is wrong and what is right about them. It would be ridiculous for me to comment on something I know I don't know.


Oh, about your story. Yeah, I know. And it is not only about tailoring. Good sellers have always more business selling crap that good technicians who have zero sales skills. That's how things have always been, and will always be. But there is also a difference in ethics. Some people do have work ethics and professional pride, and try to provide the best they can for their selling price. Others only care about making a lot of money, and their goal is to sell at the highest price what they can buy at the lowest price. Salesmen can only sell crap when customers are uneducated. Those who learn to recognise quality will go elsewhere.
Sometimes, a good team is made between a good salesman and a good technician. For example, Nutter and Sexton. This is the best.

Also, some people don't want to be big business. I know many craftmen who are small business, who are as bad a seller as can be, and yet have to refuse orders because they have too much work, and are perfectly happy living like this, far from public attention and photographers' flashes. They value much more the quality of life than being a "successfull businessman". I guess this is something that can't be understood by someone who think only bigger business is better (BTW, bigger is better is the one and only way to do business I have be tought on business school benches. It took me years to understand that there are many other choices)
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#35 Atgemis

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Posted 28 July 2012 - 11:42 AM

Nishijin,

You must understand that money is not evil. Money is energy and fuel for your business. And the more energy and fuel you have coming into and out of your business, the more your business will grow, the more you can develop the craft you have. Without money I cannot redesign my buckles and clips to perfect my bow ties, without money I cannot design my new buttons, put new designs on the looms in Italy or buy some wool in which to make a jacket so I can put it on my blog. Given the opportunity to invest in better products, sharper production, more unique pieces, I would have to have a hole in my head to say no. And how do you achieve that? By trying to sell for as much as you can and buying as low as you can so that you can get enough oxygen to feed your business into the next collection and into new development.

As for whether I am a tailor. I have never claimed to be a tailor and what I am good at is listening to my tailor - letting him guide me, but ultimately, I am the customer and I am the one paying him to do the work. It is a symbiotic relationship, but in order for him to work, I have to first part with my money. Extrapolate that across his entire customer base and you will see that soon enough, if the tailor doesn't want to play ball with his customers, he will eventually go broke. This is interchangeable with other professions you have noted.

As for the Everest jacket, it is an interesting design. It is fun, it is quirky, but I would not, in my humble opinion, call it well made. I have used a tailor in Sydney called Matthew Lawrence to pipe a midnight blue peaked lapel dinner jacket two years ago. For all Matthew's faults, his skills in piping this jacket were far superior. You can find that jacket my googling my blog if you are interested as I posted a high res image. We used a Thomas Fisher 140 twill wool with satin lapel and velvet collar, piped all around. Very avant garde for the time.

#36 Dirk

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Posted 29 July 2012 - 12:20 AM

Atgemis, nobody here (including myself) understands (or can accept) your viewpoint, because quite frankly, you appear to be part of the 'metro-sexual' generation (forgive me if I am wrong), which is generally thought down upon on this forum, and for the most part, rightly so. The professionals here understand that the newest fashions have next to no bearing on the tailoring world, as most of their customers are not people looking for fashion, people like rich lawyers, bankers, et cetera. Jukes said earlier "The difference between Tommy Nutters work and the work displayed in this thread is immense, and an insult to Mr Nutter.", this is because Tommy Nutter's suits were tailored very well, and fit as they should. Modern 'fashionable' suits are not, and do not.

The way I see it is this: No self respecting man is going to dole out 3,000 + dollars for a 'fashionable' suit that he will never wear, as it looks ridiculous, and doesn't fit him. Sure, some of the modern fashions look alright, take your suit for example. From what I can tell on the dummy, different elements of it remind me of the 50's, the 30's, and the 60's. It is fashion forward, yet wearable... except for the polyester lining. I prefer acetate.

Edited by Dirk, 29 July 2012 - 12:27 AM.

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