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pattern for two piece top collar


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#1 daristi

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Posted 09 October 2012 - 12:23 AM

two piece top collar

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#2 Der Zuschneider

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Posted 09 October 2012 - 03:04 AM

I really doubt that this is working. It might kind of work somehow... There is only one German Rundschau with the correct solution.
Carpettailors don't need a two piece collar.
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#3 Schneidergott

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Posted 09 October 2012 - 05:52 AM

I really doubt that this is working. It might kind of work somehow... There is only one German Rundschau with the correct solution.
Carpettailors don't need a two piece collar.


Please stop this "only Germans know how to do things" rubbish once and for all! Nobody cares!
I'm glad that somebody took the time to share this instead of only bashing the methods of other tailors! If you know better, not just tell, show us!


There are plenty of ways to make this work, I'm sure this has been tried and tested! And there is more than 1 solution for a 2-piece collar!

One of the other solutions would be to draft the stand differently, meaning that it would follow the curve of the front neck hole to the opposite direction to make the upper collar brake just above the stand..

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#4 daristi

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Posted 09 October 2012 - 06:44 AM

for " zusneider "

have you tried ?
try again ,if you can .

thanks for that "carpet"

daristi

#5 Terri

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Posted 09 October 2012 - 07:40 AM

I have a post dealing with this on my blog. I was making early 19th century coats but I think the basic idea and technique behind it is similar to what I would do on a modern suit collar.
I would post it in full here if I had some time.

Edited by Terri, 09 October 2012 - 07:40 AM.

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#6 dkst

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Posted 09 October 2012 - 01:28 PM

I'm glad this topic came up. I'm eager to learn more about the two-piece top collar. Your blog post was very informative, thanks Terri.

#7 Der Zuschneider

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Posted 09 October 2012 - 10:29 PM

Unfortunately SG actually has the only one correct Rundschau of 1975 at hand. And the Rundschau is G E R M A N. So what can we do about it.
Could you not publish an English way then, if you hate your German tailoring way? I call that hypocrisy!

(GSB) Denn also spricht der Hohe und Erhabene, der ewig wohnt und dessen Name heilig ist: In der Höhe und im Heiligtum wohne ich und bei dem, welcher eines zerschlagenen und gedemütigten Geistes ist, auf daß ich belebe den Geist der Gedemütigten und das Herz der Zerschlagenen erquicke.

(KJV) For thus saith the high and lofty One that inhabiteth eternity, whose name is Holy; I dwell in the high and holy place, with him also that is of a contrite and humble spirit, to revive the spirit of the humble, and to revive the heart of the contrite ones.

But actually SG is cheating on you he published only the complicated draft way, which is the same like 1 page before but with a lot of German text to translate and he don’t like to break the copyright laws as it would close the forum.

Still the draft brings the same result but is very, very different than what daristi ideas are.

But I assume you: The G E R M A N Rundschau draft works, if you understand the logical idea behind it.

But actually I wouldn't do it like that. I prefer a more logical way of developing the stand out of a regular collar.
Once you made one pattern you can use it over and over.
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#8 Schneidergott

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 05:40 PM

DZ, I'm surprised that a man of such noble christian spirit has such a negative attitude... Still, some high and mighty words coming from a man who left his beloved Germany...

Anyway, when somebody, who's native language is not English (I'm guessing here), takes the time to share his methods, you cannot just comment

I really doubt that this is working. It might kind of work somehow... There is only one German Rundschau with the correct solution.


It's just rude and shows a narrow mind!


a) The pattern I showed is from a fairly recent Rundschau and I have edited it by myself

b) any decent tailor knows how to draft the basic under collar, so I don't have to provide a draft in English

Unlike daristi, others and me, you haven't shown any solution and just provided unnecessary comments (am I the only one who sees a pattern here?).
I'm sure there is a passage I could cite from the old testament or an edition of the Watchtower, but to be honest, I haven't read any of those.
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"Nur der ist Meister seiner Kunst, der immer sucht, das Gute zu verbessern und niemals glaubt, das Beste schon zu haben."
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http://www.dressedwell.net/ It's snarky, but fun.


#9 Torry Kratch

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 08:36 PM

Unfortunately I do not have time for to provide a translation of the notes.


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#10 Martin Stall

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 11:00 PM

Carpettailors don't need a two piece collar.


Carpettailors? What the F* is a carpettailor?
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Sure, I believe your work rocks, but... have you considered, how are you going to sell that stuff?

http: under construction...

#11 Schneidergott

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Posted 11 October 2012 - 02:20 AM

Here are the images from 1975. Since we are all pros here, I saved me a proper translation:

First option: You make a pattern based on the tried and tested under collar (which has no seam allowances), which is pressed flat along the fold line (Zeichnung 1):

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Zeichnung 2 shows how to add seam allowances and draw the collar stand:

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Zeichnung 3 shows the final pattern:

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A draft for a 2-piece collar would look like this (the proper, original Rundschau version). The construction of the stand (all pattern parts are finished seams (no seam allowances)):

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Halsloch v. Rückteil means "length of the rear neck hole"!

and that of the upper collar:

Posted Image

Torry, thanks for sharing. From when are those pages? It is very difficult to find drafts for 2-piece collars before 1970.
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"Nur der ist Meister seiner Kunst, der immer sucht, das Gute zu verbessern und niemals glaubt, das Beste schon zu haben."
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http://www.dressedwell.net/ It's snarky, but fun.


#12 greger

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Posted 11 October 2012 - 09:26 AM

Der Zuschneider, why do you insist on shooting yourself in the foot?

Two piece collars have probably been around for centuries in one form or another.
I think most tailors think that they are not worth the time for most cases.
Anyway, what it boils down to is what effect one wants, so that German one really does not explain much.
I have read reasons for two piece that I don't think most tailors would have ever though of being that fashion expectations
are ever changing and were each stuck to a certain time zone, so wouldn't know what other fashion demands existed.

#13 posaune

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Posted 11 October 2012 - 09:45 PM

I was told to use the draft if you have a fabric which is not "dress"able. Like a trenchcoat fabric (or etaproof which I sewed lately)
In woman tailoring I do it often when a good stand of the collar is needed (military look a.s.o.)
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#14 Schneidergott

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Posted 11 October 2012 - 11:06 PM

I was told to use the draft if you have a fabric which is not "dress"able. Like a trenchcoat fabric (or etaproof which I sewed lately)
In woman tailoring I do it often when a good stand of the collar is needed (military look a.s.o.)
lg
Posaune


I first saw the 2-piece collar in women's wear cutting manual, surprisingly one for dresses. They don't show it in the latest Müller & Sohn coats and overcoats book.
The version Terri shows on her blog is also used for fur collars, where they just piece the upper collar and sew the parts together in a way you may not notice it's made from several pieces.
The main purpose is actually to be able to work with hard and/ or high twisted materials that don't allow much or even any shaping.
Once you have a good basic shape for the under collar it's probably faster to use the system shown in Zeichnung 1 to 3 to get a good fitting collar than to rely on stretching the material alone.

"Nur der ist Meister seiner Kunst, der immer sucht, das Gute zu verbessern und niemals glaubt, das Beste schon zu haben."
"Only he is a master of his art who always seeks to improve the good and never believes to have the best already"

http://www.dressedwell.net/ It's snarky, but fun.


#15 jcsprowls

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 04:38 AM

The main purpose is ... to work with hard ... materials that don't allow much or even any shaping.

It is. But, consider that it is also a way to control precisely how much shaping is given to the topcollar. Instead of "breaking" the topcollar with an additional process and then letting someone else determine how to make it lay down, smoothly, all these engineering constraints are worked out at the pattern bench.

There are a dozen ways to draft this. My preference is the slashing method that Terri uses. The method she adopted produces the most consistent results and can be taught and perfected in the shortest amount of time.

Also bear in mind that several of us don't draft the collar or the sleeves until after the body is fitted, styled and perfected. Those of us who do "work ahead" know how to trace our discrepancies, systematically.
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