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Third attempt at trousers, criticism welcome


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#1 tld9v1

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Posted 09 December 2013 - 01:35 PM

This is my third attempt at making trousers (first two attempts here and here). After getting some help with the pattern locally, I decided to make a pair from start to finish that I could wear.

 

Would love some comments and criticism, I plan to fix issues with the fly and tighten up the waistband and add another dart in the back.
 
Other than that are there any issues I am not seeing?
 
Pattern
 
nT8FHFJ.jpg
 
Front
 
Wy9hooB.jpg
 
Back
 
ADt9pms.jpg
 
Side
 
4GQadmI.jpg
 

 

 



#2 Terri

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Posted 09 December 2013 - 10:47 PM

Looking very good, congratulations!
Why do you feel you want to add another dart?

#3 Terri

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Posted 09 December 2013 - 10:59 PM

Just another thing, I have a theory about why trousers fit so badly, and I wondered if you still had the pattern from your other attempts and could post them.
I'd like to see if my theory is confirmed in any way by your pattern history.

#4 Henry Hall

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Posted 10 December 2013 - 02:08 AM

I'd like to ask what the basis of the draft is? Originally you had used Jane Rhinehart's draft, then Mansie's draft in the other muslins. The changes to the draft have yielded a very good fit :thumbsup:

 

Personally, I disagree with the general view on here of Rhinehart's draft. Out of the three muslins and two finished try-outs I've made from it, I've found it easier to tweak and the seat seam never fails to turn out correctly in terms of proper length and shape. The two muslins I made of Mansie's draft (one of which I still use as lounging trousers) is comfortable in terms of the general all-over ease, but the seat seam was too short. Of course it's probably my inexperience in fitting.


Edited by Henry Hall, 10 December 2013 - 02:08 AM.

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#5 tld9v1

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Posted 10 December 2013 - 03:18 AM

Looking very good, congratulations!
Why do you feel you want to add another dart?

 

By the way, thanks for all the help in the previous threads Terri!

 

Hard to tell from these pictures, but the back (right above the center back seam) is too loose. If I shorten the waistband anymore the waistband chevrons in the back and looks like this: \/

 

I was thinking maybe adding another dart (like all my other trousers) would help? I was also thinking for my next pair of trousers I will also try taking more out from the side seams instead of the center back seam, maybe that will alleviate the issue without the need for the extra dart?

 

Just another thing, I have a theory about why trousers fit so badly, and I wondered if you still had the pattern from your other attempts and could post them.
I'd like to see if my theory is confirmed in any way by your pattern history.

 

I don't have them placed over each other, but here they are:

 

First attempt:

http://i.imgur.com/JmWz3ZH.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/NfDLAQa.jpg

 

Second attempt:

 

http://i.imgur.com/WRr4j3f.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/rTzBvqw.jpg

 

 

After the second attempt I also went to a local pattern maker and asked for help correcting my pattern. The main issue she saw was that I didn't balance my pattern. She corrected my pattern so that the width of the red and blue portions (see picture below) would be equal in my pattern and line up nicely. My previous pattern was crooked from me taking things in and out and trying different things when I was making samples.

 

 

bCdFWv9.jpg

 

 

I'd like to ask what the basis of the draft is? Originally you had used Jane Rhinehart's draft, then Mansie's draft in the other muslins. The changes to the draft have yielded a very good fit :thumbsup:

 

Personally, I disagree with the general view on here of Rhinehart's draft. Out of the three muslins and two finished try-outs I've made from it, I've found it easier to tweak and the seat seam never fails to turn out correctly in terms of proper length and shape. The two muslins I made of Mansie's draft (one of which I still use as lounging trousers) is comfortable in terms of the general all-over ease, but the seat seam was too short. Of course it's probably my inexperience in fitting.

 

I started with Mansie's draft. Did a bunch of pinning and trial and error to adjust the pattern to get the fit I wanted. Then got some help from a local pattern maker to fix all the problems. :)


Edited by tld9v1, 10 December 2013 - 03:19 AM.

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#6 Che Pasticcio

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Posted 10 December 2013 - 07:40 AM

Very curious to hear your theory, Terri. And when you say badly, are there any specific issues in mind, or just all around butchery of fabric? 


Edited by Che Pasticcio, 10 December 2013 - 07:41 AM.


#7 Terri

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Posted 10 December 2013 - 08:40 AM

I wish I could see the patterns that are being used in ready to wear, because I think the basic shape of the pattern is wrong (especially the development of the back piece, and it seems to fit badly to some degree in most situations.

Anyway, I cannot make a sweeping judgement from just this one situation, but I will post my thoughts when Inget a chance to think a bit more.

#8 Henry Hall

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Posted 10 December 2013 - 10:38 AM

I'm not quite sure where I read it, but isn't it the case that many RTW patterns are created from Rundschau drafts?


Each phenomenon which is taken up should be treated with as much thoroughness as possible at that standpoint... One thing at a time and that done well!

 

- Otto Jespersen (How to Teach a Foreign Language).


#9 gramountoto

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Posted 10 December 2013 - 05:07 PM

Looks nice. Fit could maybe be further enhanced to avoid these folds.

 

tld9v1_zpsa2f9383a.jpg

 

Maybe this could help. But rather ask other members what they think as fitting trousers is already so difficult in real life when one can touch and pin etc.

 

tld9v1_2_zps34762925.jpg



#10 jcsprowls

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Posted 11 December 2013 - 02:04 AM

FYI: scooping the back crutch curve will make the back fork longer (and, the draping under the buttocks worse). A tighter seat requires a shorter back fork.

 

The drag lines you see are related to the cotton draping over the buttocks. Imagine this in wool. I'd shrink the hollow under the buttocks with ironwork and then shape the calves (slightly).

 

Take note of the iron work you do on a wool sample and fit it again. The solution may be more ironwork or it could be pattern changes. At this stage, it's not evident to you, yet.


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#11 Schneidergott

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Posted 11 December 2013 - 06:21 PM

This version is much better than the other two!

 

That said, it can still have improvements. From the way the right side of the trousers fall I guess your right hip is slightly stronger? Having asymmetrical hips is quite normal. Just add the difference to the respective side of the pattern. It usually is within the range of 1 cm or 1/2", so adding that amount at the waist seam is good enough. If it's more you have to cut and open the pattern.

From the looks of it, the fronts appear a bit short. To check this pull the waist band down a bit to see if the folds at the front crotch disappear. This will also influence the way the rear trousers will hang, so don't make any changes to the back yet. Except for this: Control the lengths of both inside seams. The rear one should be shorter by at least 0,5 cm for hard to stretch materials, 1 cm for wool or wool blends. You need to stretch (iron work!) the rear inside seam to match the front inside leg seam. By doing so you will eliminate creases below the buttocks.

 

Another hint: It's probably a little known fact that the knee width has a huge impact on how the trousers sit at the hips. I'm sure I made a post about this on the forum before, but I can't find it right now.

Fact is: Trousers with a small knee width will provide more room at the seat level than those with a large knee width. That's why jeans are usually more comfortable to wear, even though they have a smaller fork width than average suit pants.


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#12 jcsprowls

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Posted 12 December 2013 - 12:06 AM

To Terri's point re: bad RTW patterns, and SG's point re: knee width affecting the fit and drape of the panel. The patternmaker that helped this chap appears to be "old school". Few of the younger patternmakers in the RTW sector know how to balance a pattern. And, it appears she knew to make the front inseam 1/4" longer than the back inseam. 

 

What you may be seeing, Terri, are the results of bad ruboffs of bad patterns. I temped at a well-known west coast designer brand whose "patternmakers" used duct tape to plaster other manufacturers' garments onto a digitizing table without any regard to grain, stretch or balance. Some of the resulting patterns were ghastly. I suggested it would have been much faster to re-draft (and, grade) directly in the CAD system than to digitize. My contract ended early; and, I was quite relieved.

 

For custom clothing, learning to balance a draft before cutting a sample and making sure the fitting method retains the balance is fundamental. Each client's body deviates from the draft is some way. And, that's perfectly OK. A strong foundation provides a logical, rational and quantifiable (or, measurable) end result.

 

For example: now that SG knows this pattern is balanced and in a hard woven, he is able to assess that one hip is stronger than the other.


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#13 posaune

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Posted 12 December 2013 - 12:25 AM

I'm sure I made a post about this on the forum before, but I can't find it right now.

Fact is: Trousers with a small knee width will provide more room at the seat level than those with a large knee width. That's why jeans are usually more comfortable to wear, even though they have a smaller fork width than average suit pants.

 

I would like very much to read that, Schneidergott. I'm sure it is not here.

lg

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#14 Henry Hall

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Posted 12 December 2013 - 02:14 AM

This is where I have gone wrong several times when transferring fitting alterations back to the pattern. All the small changes clearly knock the balance out, but where in the usable books does it discuss clearly the re-balancing of your altered pattern? Yes, the books don't have it all, but a learner can't work everything out from scratch for himself every time.

 

It makes those self-tutoring dependent upon the the chance pieces of knowledge from those who know about this sort of problem already...and I'm grateful for it! It just makes things seem harder and slower than they could be.


Each phenomenon which is taken up should be treated with as much thoroughness as possible at that standpoint... One thing at a time and that done well!

 

- Otto Jespersen (How to Teach a Foreign Language).


#15 Schneidergott

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Posted 12 December 2013 - 03:32 AM

I am almost certainly sure that I have posted this before. Just a post, not a thread.

Anyway, here it is again:

 

http://www.cutterand...?showtopic=3587

 

 

 

 

There appears to exist a common problem with the fit of trousers: They are either to wide or to tight at the crotch.

 

To get a solution you only need to know the following, which is merely a reproduction of an article in a very old (1920s) German cutting manual, which is no longer in my posession and now somewhere in the UK.

 

Have you ever wondered why jeans, that fit so closely at the legs yet are so comfortable at seat and crotch level? Or why those wide legged trousers feel so uncomfortable at the same area?

 

The reason is quite simple: The slimmer the legs, the more the crotch opens. This is a diagram I made (using very simple techniques) to demonstrate this (note that the front and rear crotch size stays the same):

 

trousers2-1.jpg

 

This would represent a pair of trousers with a larger knee width. As you can see, the distance from A to B is relatively small compared to the version with a small knee width:

 

trousers3-1.jpg

 

​What this basically means is that for the wider knee width you need a wider crotch diameter and vice versa.

 

 

 

 

 


"Nur der ist Meister seiner Kunst, der immer sucht, das Gute zu verbessern und niemals glaubt, das Beste schon zu haben."
"Only he is a master of his art who always seeks to improve the good and never believes to have the best already"

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#16 Henry Hall

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Posted 12 December 2013 - 04:45 AM

Excellent. Short and sweet, but explains a lot.


Each phenomenon which is taken up should be treated with as much thoroughness as possible at that standpoint... One thing at a time and that done well!

 

- Otto Jespersen (How to Teach a Foreign Language).


#17 greger

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Posted 12 December 2013 - 11:43 AM

One person posted a book (pdf?) about fitting rtw and in that book it says never to gouge out the seat, but make sort of a U shape.

 

As JCProwls says, every garment needs to be balanced.



#18 gramountoto

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Posted 12 December 2013 - 03:53 PM

 

After the second attempt I also went to a local pattern maker and asked for help correcting my pattern. The main issue she saw was that I didn't balance my pattern. She corrected my pattern so that the width of the red and blue portions (see picture below) would be equal in my pattern and line up nicely. My previous pattern was crooked from me taking things in and out and trying different things when I was making samples.

 

 

bCdFWv9.jpg

 

 

 

This makes sense. However, after fittings (such as those suggested in this thread http://www.cutterand...p?showtopic=403 ) one ends with red and blue portions not equal anymore. Did I missed something ?






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