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We Live in the Age of Cheap & Nasties


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#19 jukes

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Posted 10 February 2015 - 03:38 AM

Last year I was at a fashion show in a big expensive mall. People stare at me as when I would be a movie star because they became aware that they look like garbage and were ashamed of. People really look like shit without style and taste and cheap looking fabric, terrible! They were afraid to talk with me, I was something from another star with my 1.5 cm chalk stripe suit of English fabric. This is what a traditional tailored suit does. People are simply dumb and stingy!


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#20 Schneidergott

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Posted 10 February 2015 - 08:45 AM

I think it was definitely the 1.5cm chalk stripe of the English cloth.

I don't dare to imagine what could have happened had it been any wider... :spiteful:


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"Nur der ist Meister seiner Kunst, der immer sucht, das Gute zu verbessern und niemals glaubt, das Beste schon zu haben."
"Only he is a master of his art who always seeks to improve the good and never believes to have the best already"

http://www.dressedwell.net/ It's snarky, but fun.


#21 tailleuse

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Posted 10 February 2015 - 09:01 AM

Or miseducated.

 

Or simply too poor to justify buying quality clothes (forget about bespoke), especially if their work dress code is casual.


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#22 threadwhisperer

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Posted 10 February 2015 - 09:38 AM

Or even more simply, they have the better manners and character.



#23 greger

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Posted 10 February 2015 - 10:17 AM

Or, they are thinking, "I'm not that kind of guy". And they are keeping distance because they wouldn't touch them with a ten foot pole.

There is a time for this and a time for that. Plus, we need rule breakers, or things will never change.
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#24 cperry

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Posted 11 February 2015 - 10:47 AM

Last evening, I mentioned this thread to my husband.  I'm not sure what got into him, but he wrote out the following thoughts to share on growing the tailor's art.  I guess we've been thinking about this topic for a while:

 

My hunch—being an engineer and not a tailor—is that a lot of people out there could use a good tailor, but don’t yet know that they need one.  In other words, tailors can (like engineers, really) no longer assume that their market knows they need their services.  They have to do marketing.

 

And how to do that?  I’d suggest a number of factors, starting, of course, with fit.  There are all kinds of benefit to good fit, starting with how a person looks, how the garment wears, and the overall comfort of the wearer—it lets air in when it should and does not when it should not.  Wrinkles disappear, and you no longer look like you slept in your clothes in the afternoon.

 

Not that this is any surprise to tailors, but…..learn to say it to prospective customers.

 

Following close with fit is comfort—even the little bit of tailoring that my wife does makes my shirts fit my waist better (my chest is 46”, my waist 34”—you don’t get that to fit RTW!).  Less wrinkling around the waist, an improvised gusset so the garment doesn’t pull out of my pants.  It makes a lot of difference around 4pm, to put it mildly.  Plus, again, I get air into the garment when I want it, and not when I do not.  It’s warmer in winter and cooler in summer.  Balance front to back, side to side, actual waist, hip, chest measurements—it all happens as the tailor drapes and drafts the toile.  You can’t get that with the standard “square” shirt and suits made RTW, even with the menswear shop’s tailors (we use that term here in the States for the man who does adjustments, hems, and the like, too—apologies to all of you!).  I have little doubt that in many situations, a well-adjusted garment that doesn’t need constant adjustment (tuck the shirt in a few times per day, adjust the waistband, etc..) is an advantage in my work and social interactions.

 

Again, no surprise to a tailor, but again, make sure to say it to prospective customers.

When it’s cooler in summer and warmer in winter, we also see another benefit; lifestyle.  Want to go to the church picnic when it’s 90 degrees and be active?  Want to be comfortable while watching an outdoor wedding?  Natural fibers from your tailor are the ticket, as is that fit we were talking about before. 

 

Now notice that you’re out playing games at the church picnic or wedding reception instead of sitting in the shade—this leads to the next benefit of improved clothing which is improved health.  You’re moving because you are comfortable, and because your clothing moves with you.  Moreover, the fit of your clothes reminds you to take care of yourself—just ask any woman who works out so she fits in her “skinny” jeans!  It’s an investment that can repay itself many times at the doctor’s office.   Even with the modestly decent job my family does making some of our own clothes, we often find ourselves the only ones on the tennis court in the summer and the only ones on the ice rink in the winter.  It really does make a difference.   Your doctor may even notice the change in your cholesterol test—mine did.

 

A final set of reasons for purchasing tailored garments include ethics, experience, and the environment.  Regarding the first, not too many tailors have been killed when their factory collapses, and not too many have been killed as they were sandblasting RTW jeans—yes, these are real stories.  Slave labor generally does not make good garments, so you don’t find too many slaves in tailoring—sometimes lowly paid men and women who work more for love of the trade than for money, but not slaves, and not too many sweatshops.  The client needs to visit, after all, so you need to take care of basics like “heat” and “light”.

 

As an engineer who values craftsmanship—and yes there is a hint of “Stuff White People Like” here—it is also greatly enjoyable to interact with craftsmen and learn a little bit about their craft.  Yes, that is worth a portion of the tailor’s fee at least, and I’ve spent many an enjoyable hour listening to how craftsmen repair my shoes, fix my plumbing and electrical issues, and the like.  Don’t worry, I don’t keep an individual there for hours—it’s just that when I add up the times I spend listening to these craftsmen, it adds up that much.  If they charge me a bit extra—and really they don’t most of the time—that’s OK.  That’s also an experience—cup of tea or lunch with the tailor—that can be sold as well.

 

Finally, as I’ve adjusted my clothing (or rather my wife has, mostly) to fit me personally and not the department store’s mannequin, there are environmental benefits to be had as well.  A wonderful column by a gentleman named Jeff Tucker called “Dress like a man” writes that dressing well needs 18 inches of closet space or less.   To compare, my wife and I have 21 linear feet of curtain rods in our closet—we fill maybe a third of it, even accounting for winter clothes and the like.  Make those clothes fit like a tailor can, and you’re talking a huge savings in space, fabric, energy to heat and light that space, effort to fill that space with clothing, and the like.  Live in a smaller house, just with a lot nicer clothing.  Plus, those of an environmental bent believe that natural fibers are simply more environmentally responsible than petroleum based fibers—I don’t know how the chemistry and such actually works out, since cotton requires a fair amount of pesticides and such to grow—but whatever the ecological reality, it is at least an image which a tailor can sell.  Read also “Overdressed; the Shockingly High Cost of Cheap Fashion” by Elizabeth Cline.

 

So there goes.  Now I regret to admit that I have few actually tailored clothes—a boiled wool vest and a wonderful linen shirt are about it—but on the flip side, as I’ve gone each step from Wal-Mart to nicer department store clothing to Pendleton wools (which fit my shoulders almost as if tailored—though I am no lumberjack!), I find that I need less clothing that fits better and allows me to do more in my life.

 

In other words, each step—tailored garments are definitely on that ladder—gets me more comfortable, more prosperous, more ethical, with a quiet conscience about my burden on the earth we share.  I’m glad to help you ladies & gentlemen get your businesses to the next level if I can.


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#25 tailleuse

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Posted 12 February 2015 - 08:36 AM

Last evening, I mentioned this thread to my husband.  I'm not sure what got into him, but he wrote out the following thoughts to share on growing the tailor's art.  I guess we've been thinking about this topic for a while:

 

My hunch—being an engineer and not a tailor—is that a lot of people out there could use a good tailor, but don’t yet know that they need one.  In other words, tailors can (like engineers, really) no longer assume that their market knows they need their services.  They have to do marketing.

 

 

 

Interesting thoughts, but I believe that tailors know how to sell their services to clients. The issue is where to find clients in order to educate them.  It's one reason increasing numbers of tailors have blogs: they are marketing tools.

 

 

"As an engineer who values craftsmanship—and yes there is a hint of “Stuff White People Like” here—it is also greatly enjoyable to interact with craftsmen and learn a little bit about their craft."

 

What exactly is being said here?  That people of color don't value craftsmanship?  That they don't enjoy meeting with skilled artisans? I know this expression is used jokingly all over the Web, but I don't find it funny. I assure you there are plenty of folks of all shades who appreciate these things, depending on exposure and means.


Dignity. Always, dignity. (Singin' in the Rain)


#26 cperry

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Posted 12 February 2015 - 10:40 AM

Oh dear, not at all. The reference to 'Stuff White People Like' was not meant to suggest that people of color do not appreciate good craftsmanship etc. I'm told there is a website where in humor it's as if a black anthropologist is watching the cultural habits of white urban hipsters. It's a poke or maybe meant to be a mirror. I've not seen it myself.

Oh my, people of color are so often better dressed!

Please read his thoughts as from a huge fan of tailoring, and also from the perspective of one who has struggled to find clothing to fit his swimmer shoulders and not standard shape. No offense (or suggestion that tailors don't know their business) intended. Please notice his enthusiasm.

That is a good point on not how, but who.

Edited by cperry, 12 February 2015 - 12:46 PM.


#27 SPOOKIETOO

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Posted 12 February 2015 - 07:35 PM

Cperry - when reading your husband's statement, I took the phrase "Stuff white people like" to be a good-hearted "slap" of sorts, aimed at white people, implying " nerdiness" and in no way denigrating people of color. I believe it had its intended impact with me -even though I had no knowledge of the blog.

Then I wasted a full 2 minutes of my life reading the blog. Two minutes I will never recover.

Tailleuse - any racism impled in that statement is exclusively directed at white people. While I personally find the idiosyncracies of all peoples quite humorous at times, that particular blog is nothing more than blatant racism directed at whites and written with the same overwhelming ignorance of any racist. No humor involved.

Cperry - I feel confident that your husband meant no offense. I myself occasionally use the term "whitebred" to refer to something boring and bland, when others may use the term "white bread". It would have been easy for me to substitute that phrase...but then I read the blog.

There's just too much hate on that blog.

The fact that your husband cares enough about fine clothing to have penned the article is admirable and well thought out. Like so much in media today - it is easy to pull things out of context and create adversity where none was meant.
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#28 cperry

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Posted 13 February 2015 - 08:37 AM

Spookietoo, thanks for your thoughts. Had I been more alert, I would have struck that comment out to avoid any misunderstanding. --My apologies, Tailluese.-- I also intended to remove any bold text, as things said on the internet can come across as more bold than intended.

I know there's lots of humor out there related to clothing. I agree with you and Tailluese that it's not always funny or respectful. For example, when I heard the joke about "mom's jeans," that one struck a chord! Yes, there's truth there sometimes. My reactionary thought was: 'someone is going to miss out on a lot of home baked cookies!' for a comment like that. ha, ha

It is important to be kind and respect others. We never know, maybe a person isn't dressed super well because they've had a bad day or year.

By no means do I intend to offend. Anything I say that is offensive is more likely my blindspot or ignorance rather than mallice.

I cherish the international aspect of this forum.

Now, I think I'll sign off and go back to the sewing machine.

Edited by cperry, 13 February 2015 - 10:02 AM.


#29 tailleuse

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Posted 14 February 2015 - 02:19 AM

Oh dear, not at all. The reference to 'Stuff White People Like' was not meant to suggest that people of color do not appreciate good craftsmanship etc. I'm told there is a website where in humor it's as if a black anthropologist is watching the cultural habits of white urban hipsters. It's a poke or maybe meant to be a mirror. I've not seen it myself.

 

 

As I said, I know the expression is used everywhere on the Internet.  I don't care for it because it's another form of labeling, an assumption of what certain groups do and don't do. The labels are often outdated or inaccurate. I was irritated several years ago when the New York Times was shocked, shocked to discover that there were blacks who liked hipster things.  It felt compelled to come up with a label for them: "blipsters." As if being a hipster while black required a special name.


Edited by tailleuse, 14 February 2015 - 02:31 AM.

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#30 tailleuse

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Posted 14 February 2015 - 02:29 AM

Cperry - when reading your husband's statement, I took the phrase "Stuff white people like" to be a good-hearted "slap" of sorts, aimed at white people, implying " nerdiness" and in no way denigrating people of color. I believe it had its intended impact with me -even though I had no knowledge of the blog.

Then I wasted a full 2 minutes of my life reading the blog. Two minutes I will never recover.

Tailleuse - any racism impled in that statement is exclusively directed at white people. While I personally find the idiosyncracies of all peoples quite humorous at times, that particular blog is nothing more than blatant racism directed at whites and written with the same overwhelming ignorance of any racist. No humor involved.

Cperry - I feel confident that your husband meant no offense. I myself occasionally use the term "whitebred" to refer to something boring and bland, when others may use the term "white bread". It would have been easy for me to substitute that phrase...but then I read the blog.

There's just too much hate on that blog.

The fact that your husband cares enough about fine clothing to have penned the article is admirable and well thought out. Like so much in media today - it is easy to pull things out of context and create adversity where none was meant.

 

I'm not talking about the site, which I've never visited, but the expression, which is common currency. I find the phrase "Things that White People Do," problematic, for the reasons I explained in an earlier comment.  I have no problems with the terms "white bread" or "milquetoast" as synonyms for bland or boring, but they can be applied to members of any group.  Many times I see the TTWPD tag being used for common behaviors. Sometimes it relates to activities that are considered precious or rarified or simply non-mainstream.  But if non-whites engage in them, they're sometimes accused of "acting white," when they're acting like people, perhaps ambitious, prosperous people, who aren't fitting someone's stereotype.

 

I'm not pulling anything "out of context."  I'm directly addressing the context.  I'm also not looking to "create adversity." (Which is insulting.) I'm a frequent visitor to this forum (much longer than you), I'm obviously fascinated by tailoring and I help other members whenever I can.  But if I read something objectionable I respond to it.

 

I'm not saying cperry's husband is racist or was trying to offend, but this is a perspective you and others obviously have not considered.


Edited by tailleuse, 14 February 2015 - 02:36 AM.

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#31 tailleuse

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Posted 14 February 2015 - 02:32 AM

By no means do I intend to offend. Anything I say that is offensive is more likely my blindspot or ignorance rather than mallice.

 

 

I didn't think you were, and I enjoy your comments on the forum. But that expression really bugs me.

 

As for black people dressing better than white people, you haven't seen my relatives, some of whom live in Minnesota. :-)  They dress all right, but they're hardly fashion plates.


Edited by tailleuse, 14 February 2015 - 02:52 AM.

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#32 cperry

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Posted 14 February 2015 - 05:17 AM

I'm a little over tired today, but reading through your thoughts, Tailleuse, I think you have a valid argument.  I decided to edit my husband's thoughts and strike the offensive reference completely out.  It is really only a distraction to the points being made.  I don't know how it works, maybe the moderators can delete the conversations up to that point, if all are in agreement.  I'm just smiling back on the "Minnesota" and fashion plate thoughts. lol  :)

 

How about this:

 

Last evening, I mentioned this thread to my husband.  I'm not sure what got into him, but he wrote out the following thoughts to share on growing the tailor's art.  I guess we've been thinking about this topic for a while:

 

My hunch—being an engineer and not a tailor—is that a lot of people out there could use a good tailor, but don’t yet know that they need one.  In other words, tailors can (like engineers, really) no longer assume that their market knows they need their services.  They have to do marketing.

 

And how to do that?  I’d suggest a number of factors, starting, of course, with fit.  There are all kinds of benefit to good fit, starting with how a person looks, how the garment wears, and the overall comfort of the wearer—it lets air in when it should and does not when it should not.  Wrinkles disappear, and you no longer look like you slept in your clothes in the afternoon.

Not that this is any surprise to tailors, but…..say it to prospective customers.

 

Following close with fit is comfort—even the little bit of tailoring that my wife does makes my shirts fit my waist better (my chest is 46”, my waist 34”—you don’t get that to fit RTW!).  Less wrinkling around the waist, an improvised gusset so the garment doesn’t pull out of my pants.  It makes a lot of difference around 4pm, to put it mildly.  Plus, again, I get air into the garment when I want it, and not when I do not.  It’s warmer in winter and cooler in summer.  Balance front to back, side to side, actual waist, hip, chest measurements—it all happens as the tailor drapes and drafts the toile.  You can’t get that with the standard “square” shirt and suits made RTW, even with the menswear shop’s tailors (we use that term here in the States for the man who does adjustments, hems, and the like, too—apologies to all of you!).  I have little doubt that in many situations, a well-adjusted garment that doesn’t need constant adjustment (tuck the shirt in a few times per day, adjust the waistband, etc..) is an advantage in my work and social interactions.

 

Again, no surprise to a tailor, but again, make sure to say it to prospective customers.

 

When it’s cooler in summer and warmer in winter, we also see another benefit; lifestyle.  Want to go to the church picnic when it’s 90 degrees and be active?  Want to be comfortable while watching an outdoor wedding?  Natural fibers from your tailor are the ticket, as is that fit we were talking about before. 

 

Now notice that you’re out playing games at the church picnic or wedding reception instead of sitting in the shade—this leads to the next benefit of improved clothing which is improved health.  You’re moving because you are comfortable, and because your clothing moves with you.  Moreover, the fit of your clothes reminds you to take care of yourself—just ask any woman who works out so she fits in her “skinny” jeans!  It’s an investment that can repay itself many times at the doctor’s office.   Even with the modestly decent job my family does making some of our own clothes, we often find ourselves the only ones on the tennis court in the summer and the only ones on the ice rink in the winter.  It really does make a difference.   Your doctor may even notice the change in your cholesterol test—mine did.

 

A final set of reasons for purchasing tailored garments include ethics, experience, and the environment.  Regarding the first, not too many tailors have been killed when their factory collapses, and not too many have been killed as they were sandblasting RTW jeans—yes, these are real stories.  Slave labor generally does not make good garments, so you don’t find too many slaves in tailoring—sometimes lowly paid men and women who work more for love of the trade than for money, but not slaves, and not too many sweatshops.  The client needs to visit, after all, so you need to take care of basics like “heat” and “light”.

 

One thing I find enjoyable is interacting with craftsmen and learning a little bit about their craft.  Yes, that is worth a portion of the tailor’s fee at least, and I’ve spent many an enjoyable hour listening to how craftsmen repair my shoes, fix my plumbing and electrical issues, and the like.  Don’t worry, I don’t keep an individual there for hours—it’s just that when I add up the times I spend listening to these craftsmen, it adds up that much.  If they charge me a bit extra—and really they don’t most of the time—that’s OK.  That’s also an experience—cup of tea or lunch with the tailor—that can be sold as well.

 

Finally, as I’ve adjusted my clothing (or rather my wife has, mostly) to fit me personally and not the department store’s mannequin, there are environmental benefits to be had as well.  A wonderful column by a gentleman named Jeff Tucker called “Dress like a man” writes that dressing well needs 18 inches of closet space or less.   To compare, my wife and I have 21 linear feet of curtain rods in our closet—we fill maybe a third of it, even accounting for winter clothes and the like.  Make those clothes fit like a tailor can, and you’re talking a huge savings in space, fabric, energy to heat and light that space, effort to fill that space with clothing, and the like.  Live in a smaller house, just with a lot nicer clothing.  Plus, those of an environmental bent believe that natural fibers are simply more environmentally responsible than petroleum based fibers—I don’t know how the chemistry and such actually works out, since cotton requires a fair amount of pesticides and such to grow—but whatever the ecological reality, it is at least an image which a tailor can sell.  Read also “Overdressed; the Shockingly High Cost of Cheap Fashion” by Elizabeth Cline.

 

So there goes.  Now I regret to admit that I have few actually tailored clothes—a boiled wool vest and a wonderful linen shirt are about it—but on the flip side, as I’ve gone each step from Wal-Mart to nicer department store clothing to Pendleton wools (which fit my shoulders almost as if tailored--though I am no lumberjack!), I find that I need less clothing that fits better and allows me to do more in my life.

 

In other words, each step—tailored garments are definitely on that ladder—gets me more comfortable, more prosperous, more ethical, with a quiet conscience about my burden on the earth we share.  I’m glad to help you ladies & gentlemen get your businesses to the next level if I can.


Edited by cperry, 14 February 2015 - 05:19 AM.

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#33 tailleuse

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Posted 14 February 2015 - 06:08 AM

I'm a little over tired today, but reading through your thoughts, Tailleuse, I think you have a valid argument.  I decided to edit my husband's thoughts and strike the offensive reference completely out.  It is really only a distraction to the points being made.  I don't know how it works, maybe the moderators can delete the conversations up to that point, if all are in agreement.  I'm just smiling back on the "Minnesota" and fashion plate thoughts. lol  :)

 

cperry: 

 

There's no need to edit anything. As I've said a few times now, I know that many people use the expression. I was just pointing out my problems with it. I do appreciate that you listened. :-)

 

Tailleuse


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#34 Schneidergott

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Posted 14 February 2015 - 04:54 PM

cperry,

 

I've read your husband's original article and I see no reason why anyone would interpret it to be offensive!

 

Tailleuse, when you say "person of colour" you are clearly excluding the white ones, which can also be seen as racist, since "white" is just as good a "colour" as the other ones used to describe a person's appearance, cultural or geographical background.

Even worse, by excluding me (I'm "white"), are you saying I'm not a person?


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"Nur der ist Meister seiner Kunst, der immer sucht, das Gute zu verbessern und niemals glaubt, das Beste schon zu haben."
"Only he is a master of his art who always seeks to improve the good and never believes to have the best already"

http://www.dressedwell.net/ It's snarky, but fun.


#35 cperry

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Posted 15 February 2015 - 06:13 AM

Thank you, Schneidergott, for the thoughts. I really, sincerely don't want bad feelings to continue due to ths topic or thread. I'm good with taking out a reference to something that causes bad feelings. It's true the reference was a slap at white people or my husband alone, but I understand how things can get all turned around. Probably the best illustration of the intended humor is Weird Al's song, White and Nerdy. I wouldn't have known of the song, except WA can be credited with keeping my husband's sanity in his youth and the stresses of growing up in the 80s culture. I recommend only watching it only if you do so with a sense of humor. It made me laugh being married to an engineer. It's true that laughter is good medicine, and sometimes we should laugh at ourselves. But not at the expense of others

I would much rather fight over whether to use natural fibers or poly blends or gimp etc.

Happy Valentine's Day
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#36 Schneidergott

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Posted 15 February 2015 - 07:53 AM

It's just that if you want to be offended it's easy to find something that does these days, even it it wasn't originally intended to be offensive.

 

If you avoid silly generalisations, cliches or the usual trigger words I have no problem with a bit of friendly mannered banter.


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"Nur der ist Meister seiner Kunst, der immer sucht, das Gute zu verbessern und niemals glaubt, das Beste schon zu haben."
"Only he is a master of his art who always seeks to improve the good and never believes to have the best already"

http://www.dressedwell.net/ It's snarky, but fun.





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