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#37 jcsprowls

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Posted 17 September 2014 - 07:14 AM

Many years ago, we used to use a product called 'colored rope' which was a much heavier grade of manila for our permanent patterns (e.g. pockets, shapers, etc.) This product has become prohibitively expensive, so the industry has been shifting to .002 and .003 HDPE plastic sheeting for quite a while.

 

The heavier goods require tin snips to cut. Manila, on the other hand, can be cut with fabric shears.

 

RE: tissue. I can't begin to tell you the frustration you will encounter if you go down this path.

 

RE: process. Measure, draft, cut, sew, fit, adjust, write back changes, make clean copy of pattern; repeat as often as necessary.


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#38 hutch48

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Posted 17 September 2014 - 09:09 AM

That is an interesting choice and its a plastic sheet I am not familiar with. I have seen very stiff polycarbonate sheet which is nice robust stuff and perfectly clear but funny enough I have seen my share of templates made of sheet aluminium in old production facilities.

 

Using tissue patterns occur in a particular context, very low volume, pattern pinned to fabric layout and accurate cutting around the edges by hand. Its a technology from 1950s dressmaking and it has the advantage of being cheap to make, easy to use and easy to modify. While exotic materials and high technology work well in a production scenario, on the individual hand made item, its more of a burden than a virtue.


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#39 Terri

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Posted 17 September 2014 - 09:25 PM

I think that drafting onto tissue would be frustrating.
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#40 jcsprowls

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Posted 17 September 2014 - 11:12 PM

I buy tissue on rolls. But, I use it for cutting, not drafting.

 

I use it to separate plies by colorway or count (e.g. 10 units). It increases friction for accurate cutting of slippery goods (e.g. silks, polyesters).

 

And, with a very scant mist of marker adhesive, it helps to match stripes/plaids.


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#41 OJD

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Posted 18 September 2014 - 02:35 AM

That is an interesting choice and its a plastic sheet I am not familiar with. I have seen very stiff polycarbonate sheet which is nice robust stuff and perfectly clear but funny enough I have seen my share of templates made of sheet aluminium in old production facilities.

 

Using tissue patterns occur in a particular context, very low volume, pattern pinned to fabric layout and accurate cutting around the edges by hand. Its a technology from 1950s dressmaking and it has the advantage of being cheap to make, easy to use and easy to modify. While exotic materials and high technology work well in a production scenario, on the individual hand made item, its more of a burden than a virtue.

 

Tissue paper was mainly used because it was cheaper to send out premade patterns with it. I agree with JCp on this one, It is not a good way. Pinning the flimsy paper from hell induces nothing but distortions in the fabric. And if you are drafting you can't erase nothing on it, if you need to add something somewhere you can't really tape it in a good way either. There is absolutely no positive things about dressmaking paper, except price.

Bespoke tailors use individual patterns for each customer (hence very low volume) and yet they chose manila paper...


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#42 hutch48

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Posted 18 September 2014 - 03:38 AM

Pinning the flimsy paper from hell induces nothing but distortions in the fabric.

 

It tends to be a matter of practice, I know dressmakers from old who were fast, accurate and had no problems at all pinning a tissue pattern to often very cantankerous fabrics but then they were very experienced at what they did. High durability patterns are reasonably straightforward to make with modern materials like polycarbonate and it is far more robust than manila cardboard. You will make production quality patterns that will last for years with 1mm polycarbonate but you have to know how to cut it out and get decent edges.

 

if you need to add something somewhere you can't really tape it in a good way either.

 

Tissue patterns have one advantage apart from being very cheap to make, they are very easy to copy one to another and that makes modification fast and simple without messy amateur changes stuck together with tape. Like most things, modifying patterns just takes practice and you will trace and modify a pattern made of tissue much faster than copying a manila pattern or sticking bits of tape to it.

 

Modern pattern making is CAD based but its not really an individual tailors tool unless that also happen to be highly computer literate and own expensive plotters along with the pattern making software to produce variations quickly.


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#43 tailleuse

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Posted 18 September 2014 - 05:29 AM

I buy tissue ... for cutting, not drafting.

 

I use it to separate plies by colorway or count (e.g. 10 units). It increases friction for accurate cutting of slippery goods (e.g. silks, polyesters).

 

....

 

That's a good, traditional method.  Microserrated shears or freezer paper used as a stabilizer work better for me.


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#44 tailleuse

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Posted 18 September 2014 - 05:35 AM

I once drew out a pattern on the back of a roll of wallpaper because there was nothing else.

 

I once read an article about families who used old newspapers.  I assume the ink didn't smear.


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#45 tailleuse

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Posted 18 September 2014 - 05:40 AM

To preserve a commercial pattern,I like to use Swedish Tracing Paper or Bosal Create-A-Pattern. There are other, similar products but those are two I've used. It's translucent medium with a texture similar to interfacing.  It's very easy to lay on top of a pattern and trace with a pencil.  It also works for preliminary tissue fitting: It can be pinned together to give a rough idea of the fit before being transferred to muslin.


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#46 OJD

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Posted 18 September 2014 - 06:47 AM

Pinning the flimsy paper from hell induces nothing but distortions in the fabric.

 

It tends to be a matter of practice, I know dressmakers from old who were fast, accurate and had no problems at all pinning a tissue pattern to often very cantankerous fabrics but then they were very experienced at what they did. High durability patterns are reasonably straightforward to make with modern materials like polycarbonate and it is far more robust than manila cardboard. You will make production quality patterns that will last for years with 1mm polycarbonate but you have to know how to cut it out and get decent edges.

 

if you need to add something somewhere you can't really tape it in a good way either.

 

Tissue patterns have one advantage apart from being very cheap to make, they are very easy to copy one to another and that makes modification fast and simple without messy amateur changes stuck together with tape. Like most things, modifying patterns just takes practice and you will trace and modify a pattern made of tissue much faster than copying a manila pattern or sticking bits of tape to it.

 

Modern pattern making is CAD based but its not really an individual tailors tool unless that also happen to be highly computer literate and own expensive plotters along with the pattern making software to produce variations quickly.

 

Eh, amateur changes, well I've seen proffessionals use that method. Copying thru manila is not really a problem either, just use a needle wheel. And pinning is still not a good idea in standard weight worsted, no matter how experienced you are. And further more, pinning takes time.

Why not just stand down on this one? There has been enough pros here who have said the same thing, thicker manila paper or manila-ish paper is better for this purpose. And nobody except JC is making production patterns anyway. And why the talk of CAD?



#47 Schneiderfrei

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Posted 18 September 2014 - 08:05 AM

You will no doubt see professionals using many different methods OJD.  I am certain I am not alone when I do not see this discussion as a kind of standoff.


Edited by Schneiderfrei, 18 September 2014 - 08:13 AM.

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#48 hutch48

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Posted 18 September 2014 - 09:34 AM

:thumbsup:

 


Why not just stand down on this one? There has been enough pros here who have said the same thing, thicker manila paper or manila-ish paper is better for this purpose. And nobody except JC is making production patterns anyway. And why the talk of CAD?

 

Well, simply because you are wrong, there is an army of experienced dressmakers around the world who have been able to do what you claim you cannot and have been doing it for many years in a highly successful manner. You should never write off other people's skills just because you don't have them yourself. We all know that JC is a professional but he is far from the only person who makes professional patterns around the world. I have seen them made from sheet aluminium, a variety of sheet plastics and a few people still use the old manila cardboard if they can get it but its not as robust as modern sheet plastics and its not transparent.

 

Just remember you are trying to win an argument against millions of ladies who have successfully made their own dresses from either commercial patterns or their own who can easily pin out a tissue pattern, cut it out and stitch it together. I remember as a young kid wearing tailored pinstrip shirts my mum made from commercial patterns and an ancient Singer sewing machine. You simply need to understand that other people know how to do thing that you don't, the trick is to learn 


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#49 Schneidergott

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Posted 18 September 2014 - 04:54 PM

Tissue paper is a pain to work with. It's hard to draw on it, because either your pen or pencil will cut it and/ or your hands get stuck to it.

Yes, pinning it to a fabric is no problem but I think it's more of a home sewers thing to use it (in particular where storing space is an issue).

 

For a professional use it's not sturdy enough.

 

BTW, if you happen to have a local newspaper you might be able to get end of rolls from them. If you are on a budget it's the next best thing, because I could get it for free.


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#50 OJD

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Posted 19 September 2014 - 03:46 AM

:thumbsup:

 

 

 

Well, simply because you are wrong, there is an army of experienced dressmakers around the world who have been able to do what you claim you cannot and have been doing it for many years in a highly successful manner. You should never write off other people's skills just because you don't have them yourself. We all know that JC is a professional but he is far from the only person who makes professional patterns around the world. I have seen them made from sheet aluminium, a variety of sheet plastics and a few people still use the old manila cardboard if they can get it but its not as robust as modern sheet plastics and its not transparent.

 

Just remember you are trying to win an argument against millions of ladies who have successfully made their own dresses from either commercial patterns or their own who can easily pin out a tissue pattern, cut it out and stitch it together. I remember as a young kid wearing tailored pinstrip shirts my mum made from commercial patterns and an ancient Singer sewing machine. You simply need to understand that other people know how to do thing that you don't, the trick is to learn 

 

Yeah, and you are the only one here right now arguing for it. Step in to any tailors work room and you will see manila paper. And this forum is just about that, tailoring. Not dressmaking or proffessional pattern design.


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#51 DesertElephant

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Posted 19 September 2014 - 04:02 AM

Now now, Girls.  You're both pretty.  Considering that this was merely a question regarding Width of drafting paper, I had it answered.  THEN, I got a huge amount of helpful and practical information about pattern making in general.  As I have just a single hand with which to work.

 

I am going to trust the Pro CUTTERS AND TAILORS (psst, the hint is in the Forum name), who draft and make patterns quite regularly.  A sturdy pattern that will allow me to chalk accurately when weighted down, because it has a more rigid edge, is what works for me.

 

I honestly think rule number one of this Forum is to not be a wanker.  Or should be.  Cantankerous, sure... you are cutters and tailors after all.. but not so much as to be a wanker.  Especially those who are amateurs.  It's just a bit inappropriate.


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#52 DesertElephant

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Posted 19 September 2014 - 04:04 AM

To preserve a commercial pattern,I like to use Swedish Tracing Paper or Bosal Create-A-Pattern. There are other, similar products but those are two I've used. It's translucent medium with a texture similar to interfacing.  It's very easy to lay on top of a pattern and trace with a pencil.  It also works for preliminary tissue fitting: It can be pinned together to give a rough idea of the fit before being transferred to muslin.

 

Neat!


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#53 hutch48

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Posted 19 September 2014 - 05:50 AM

:acute:

 

I guess the problem of living in a parallel universe has risen again, insisting on using a dated medium like manila paper to the exclusion of either cheaper and easier to use mediums or alternately taking a professional approach and using modern materials in the form of robust clear plastic sheet are both too complex for you to comprehend. In the era of manila paper the tough, flexible and perfectly clear sheet plastics did not exist, neither did high powered CAD software, plotters and design software and like it or lump it, modern tailoring uses all of the latest things where it adds up to a production advantage.

 

In OZ where I live rolls of tissue designed for the purpose are cheap and easy to get, easy to cut and translucent so its easy and fast to trace an existing pattern rather than messing around trying to tape bits onto manila to perform modifications. As the vast majority of rag trade folks can pin up accurately, can draw on tissue with either pencils or pens and can cut out accurately, I wonder why you seem incapable of doing such simple things.

 

In the context where I make things that don't change, I cut out a clear plastic template, write any info I need with a spirit based felt tip and use it to mark out various small items like pockets, flaps and similar small knick knacks. They are that robust that they don't wear out, you main risk is losing them.

 

With DE's original question, various people have made suggestions and DE has made his choice based on his own preference, I wonder why we have had to suffer this tirade of nonsense, simply because of your inexperience or incapacity to use things that people have done for years and further that you don't have the capacity to produce professional production mediums in plastic sheet like polycarbonate (GE Lexan) for highly robust production environments.

 

You need to get used to the idea that there are many ways of doing things, manila paper does the job but its not the easiest, fastest, cheapest and its not as good as the range of mediums available. Tailoring has been going on since the days of bone needles and stitching animal hides together with sinew while sitting in a cave lit by campfire and while it certainly has improved a lot over time, it has never been a fixed "politically correct" way of how things should be done.



#54 DesertElephant

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Posted 19 September 2014 - 05:58 AM

Aside from OJD getting slightly heated, no one is stepping on anyone else but you.  And it is really offensive.  Use whatever you want.  I could literally not care any less about what you use to make your patterns than I do now.

 

What I can say, is that before you turned this into your personal crusade against Manila, I got some really great ideas, information, and interesting viewpoints.


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-Polonius, Hamlet, Act 1, Scene 3






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