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A little treat: A Ciraci shirt draft from the early 60's

Ciraci shirt draft 60

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#1 Schneidergott

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Posted 24 September 2014 - 07:11 AM

Hello!

 

I haven't touched that book for a while, but just recently I went through it again and found a shirt draft:

 

Page 1 is mostly about the (proportionate) size of the collars. In the chart you find the following measurements (from left to right): half chest measure, 1/10 of full chest measure, collar width and the corresponding industrial shirt size.

There is a rule saying collar size is half chest minus 1/10 of full chest, but this is only true for sizes (or better half chest) 46 to 52. Below these measures there is 0,5 cm added for every 2 cm step.

For measures above 52 0,5 cm is subtracted for each increase of 2 cm.

15334366222_5bde80e513_o.jpg

 

15147912409_aa7c4577ac_o.jpg

 

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THE BACK:

 

You start your draft with an angle from  point 1 to the left and down.

 

1 to 1' is 1/10 of the collar width.

1 to 2 is 1/10 of full chest girth plus half of that amount.

2 to 2' is always 10 cm.

1 to 4 is total length ( 1/2 of height minus 3 to 5 cm).

1 to 5 equals distance 1 to 1' plus 3 cm.

5 to 6 is 1/2 of 1 to 1'. Draw the center neck through 6 and continue to hit the top horizontal line.

5 to 8 is like 1 to 2' plus 1,5 or 2 cm.

Point 7 is squared down from 8 to the line coming from 2'.

8 to 9 is 1/3 of 1' to 2 or 1/2 of 1/10 of full chest.

9 to 9' is 4 cm.

2' to 7' is 1/2 of half chest plus 5 to 6 cm. From 7' square down to bottom.

7' to 13 is 1/2 of 1' to 2' plus 8 cm.

13 to 13' is half of 13 to 14 plus 2 cm. From 13 go 1,5 cm inwards for side seam shape.

14 to 15 is like 13' to 14 plus 2 to 3 cm. Shape the bottom as you like.

For the yoke measure from 1' half of 1' to 2 minus 1 cm and square to the left. Form a little dart at the armhole.

 

(It doesn't say so in the instructions but it makes it easier if you continue the horizontal lines from 1 and 2' to the left. I would also suggest to have a squared line through point 13 and continue it to the left. Makes further steps a bit easier, since you don't need to measure the distances in the front part).

 

 

THE FRONT:

 

1 to 2 equals 1 to 5 in the back.

1 to 1' is like 1 to 2 plus ca. 1 cm.

1 to 2' is same as 1' to 2' in the back.

1 to 17 is 1' to 4 in the back minus 5 cm.

2' to 8 equals 2' to 7' in the back.

8 to 13 to 13' is the same as in the back.

2 to 5 is like 5 to 8 in the back minus 1 cm. Square down from 5 to the bottom, creating points 10 and 15.

16 to 15 is 16 to 13 minus 2 cm. Shape the hem as you like.

10 to 11 is 7 to 9 in the back minus 3 cm.

2 to 2'' is 2 cm.

Shape the armholes following the diagram.

From the centre front line (1 to 17) measure 1,7 cm to the left and another 4,5 cm for the fold in button/hole facing.

 

THE SLEEVE:

 

15148584690_2c3c192f66_o.jpg

 

Angle from 1 to left and down.

 

1 to 2 is 9 to 7' in the back (measure diagonally, not along the seam line) plus 2 cm.

1 to 3 is 1/2 of 1 to 2.

2 to 4 equals 2 to 3.

connect 1 and 4 with a straight line, 5 is at the middle.

6 is 1/2 of 3 to 5. Draw crown as shown in diagram through point 6.

1 to 7 is sleeve length plus 4 cm, minus the height of the cuff.

7 to 8 is 1 to 3 plus 5 to 6 cm.

8 to 9 is 1/2 7 to 8.

9 to 10 equals 1 to 5.

 

I find that the shape of the crown should not be the same in front and back, but it's up to you (it needs to be higher in the front and lower/ flatter in the back to follow the shapes of the front and rear armholes, which have different curves).


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#2 fronno

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Posted 24 September 2014 - 08:47 AM

Thank you Schneidergott for those pages and in particular for the formula, because working with the books from 'La modellistica dell'abbigliamento' it is much easier to hand my pupils the formula instead to tell them to learn the tabel with the 'scollo' measurements by heart.



#3 Schneiderfrei

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Posted 24 September 2014 - 06:29 PM

Many thanks Schneidergott, what a treat.  How is it going in Scotland? Must be quite eventful lately.


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#4 Schneidergott

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Posted 25 September 2014 - 06:34 AM

Many thanks Schneidergott, what a treat.  How is it going in Scotland? Must be quite eventful lately.

 

 

Are you referring to the independence vote? Yeah, they got close, but not more.

The Westminster politicians made a lot of promises which soon will be forgotten.

Either way, I'm glad all the commentary on the radio is gone.

 

I am actually quite surprised what a lovely summer we had here in the South-West. From the tales so often told I expected worse... :Bring It On:  But then, we are in the Lowlands. I'm sure higher up it's getting a bit fresher already.


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"Nur der ist Meister seiner Kunst, der immer sucht, das Gute zu verbessern und niemals glaubt, das Beste schon zu haben."
"Only he is a master of his art who always seeks to improve the good and never believes to have the best already"

http://www.dressedwell.net/ It's snarky, but fun.


#5 Faith

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Posted 25 September 2014 - 09:53 AM

I'm still working on a 1959 Rundschau toile for my husband, but this one might be next.

 

As for the Scotland vote, BAH! Looking at the wikipedia page about the referendum, Scotland the Brave looks more like Glasgow the Brave. Nevertheless, I'll still proudly sing SCOTLAND the Brave in honour of mo gemischten héritage. (my mixed heritage) (Ulster Scots and Swiss French)


If most women are not 5 feet 10 inches 120 pounds, why do these unrealistic models dominate the runways?


#6 gatto

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Posted 26 September 2014 - 12:29 AM

Giving a quick look at the draft, I notice distance  between 2' and 7'  (on the back) is  1/4 of the chest plus 5 or 6 cm.

 

I am making shirts now in Italy, and I give 1/4 of the chest plus 3, and often customers thinks is too much.

 

Which is the opinion of shirtmakers here in the forum ?

 

 

Thanks and regards,

gatto



#7 Schneiderfrei

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Posted 26 September 2014 - 12:41 AM

I noticed the same here in Australia. No ease to speak of and even extra darts indietro to 1 cm.  No body cares for comfort in motion.


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#8 gatto

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Posted 26 September 2014 - 01:40 AM

SORRY  !!!! I relize I did a mistake......I give  3 cm ..... but then another 1 for the seam !

 

please, forgive me !!

 

anyway I will try to make one and see 

 

sorry !

gatto.


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#9 posaune

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Posted 26 September 2014 - 02:44 AM

This is a shirt draft from the 60's. There was an ease about 10 cm (half pattern) right for a normal shirt. If you do less - you can not use the sleeve draft in my opinion.

A shirt with 6 cm is today a slim shirt.

lg

posaune


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#10 gramountoto

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Posted 26 September 2014 - 04:44 AM

Just made some shirts for me with 5,5 cm ease on the half.

 

I feel that it would be hard to make slimmer shirts without using stretch fabric unless you want to wear something uncomfortable.


Edited by gramountoto, 26 September 2014 - 04:46 AM.

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#11 Schneidergott

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Posted 26 September 2014 - 06:54 AM

I'D say the amount of ease depends on personal taste/ preference and the figure.

An overall ease of 12 to 16 cm is fine, much more or less and it becomes uncomfortable or too wide to be worn under a jacket.

 

This is a basic draft and you need to play with all the different points of construction. Since they only use 1/4 chest plus ease you have to decrease the shoulder width a bit as well if you use less ease in the chest.

Otherwise you'd end up with a very small/ narrow armhole. In some cases the sequence in the draft instruction is not logical.


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"Nur der ist Meister seiner Kunst, der immer sucht, das Gute zu verbessern und niemals glaubt, das Beste schon zu haben."
"Only he is a master of his art who always seeks to improve the good and never believes to have the best already"

http://www.dressedwell.net/ It's snarky, but fun.


#12 Schneiderfrei

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Posted 26 September 2014 - 01:58 PM

Yes! Not logical.


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#13 Schneiderfrei

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Posted 26 September 2014 - 02:05 PM

I'D say the amount of ease depends on personal taste/ preference and the figure.

An overall ease of 12 to 16 cm is fine, much more or less and it becomes uncomfortable or too wide to be worn under a jacket.

 

This is a basic draft and you need to play with all the different points of construction. Since they only use 1/4 chest plus ease you have to decrease the shoulder width a bit as well if you use less ease in the chest.

Otherwise you'd end up with a very small/ narrow armhole. In some cases the sequence in the draft instruction is not logical.

 

 

I wish to know how the change of the shoulder length might affect the wearing of the shirt.  

 

I have been working at the Rundschau draft for a model and when he wanted even less ease than was allowed for in the basic draft I noticed that the shoulder length was reduced.

 

I have not had a chance to fit him yet but I wonder what to expect from such a change?

 

It seems an important element. eg the sleeve will become too short, or the neck seam might be affected.

 

How will a narrow armhole affect things?


Edited by Schneiderfrei, 26 September 2014 - 02:08 PM.

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#14 Schneidergott

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Posted 26 September 2014 - 04:21 PM

In some cases they tell you to measure from the neck (over the shoulder) to the wrist. So that would be the total measure you will have to have in your draft/ shirt (plus ease/ additional length like 2/3 of the cuff height when you subtract it).

To keep that measure the same you will have to adjust either the shoulder width or the sleeve length, depending on which one you change (for example: wider shoulder = shorter sleeve/ crown).

 

A narrow armhole wiil have to be very close to the body (high), otherwise you won't be able to move with comfort, given that the sleeve is wide enough for the arm.

 

So make sure that each section stays in a relative proprtion to each other. So don't cut wide fronts and backs and make the armhole deep and narrow (or the other way round).

And the closer fitting a shirt (or any garment for that matter) has to be, it will need more back balance.


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"Nur der ist Meister seiner Kunst, der immer sucht, das Gute zu verbessern und niemals glaubt, das Beste schon zu haben."
"Only he is a master of his art who always seeks to improve the good and never believes to have the best already"

http://www.dressedwell.net/ It's snarky, but fun.


#15 Schneiderfrei

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Posted 26 September 2014 - 06:50 PM

Thank you  Schneidergott,

 

In the Ciraci Shirt, above, it looks like the sleeve is measured from the end of the shoulder seam, unless the arms are very short. Can you say how they do it?

 

One more thing, please, I don't understand the significance of the semiampiezza dorso measurement or how it is calculated? Is it the measurement that is mentioned in the 5 - 8 as semidorso?

 

It is brilliant to see this draft, it makes it very clear why the Rundschau is so well thought of.


Edited by Schneiderfrei, 27 September 2014 - 02:24 AM.

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#16 napoli

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Posted 27 September 2014 - 11:38 AM

Hi Gatto and folks. In Naples is also 1/4 of chest plus 3 and i try to do even less when possible. Default is plus 4 cm.

What is your max waist -? -1'5 cm and tge back dart of max 3 or have done more than it, that was the teoric limit i was told but i always try to be over?

#17 Schneidergott

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Posted 28 September 2014 - 06:37 AM

I have no idea where they get the semidorso (half back) measurement from. I couldn't find a chart or a formula for this.

I checked the coat drafts and even there the half back varied although the chest width was the same. But it seems (though I am totally guessing here) that they add or subtract 1/4 of each size they go up or down.

In a coat draft for half chest 48 the half back measured 20,5 cm. So for half chest 52 it would have to be 21,5 cm half back width.

In either case, this half back is measured from 1' to 8 or from 2' to 7.


"Nur der ist Meister seiner Kunst, der immer sucht, das Gute zu verbessern und niemals glaubt, das Beste schon zu haben."
"Only he is a master of his art who always seeks to improve the good and never believes to have the best already"

http://www.dressedwell.net/ It's snarky, but fun.


#18 Schneiderfrei

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Posted 28 September 2014 - 09:31 AM

Thank you Schneidergott!! I refrain from other comment (either about my own stupidity or that of the draft).

 

Except, could this be a direct measurement??

 

 

Thanks napoli, it would be good to hear your comments, also, on this shirt from Italy:)


Edited by Schneiderfrei, 28 September 2014 - 10:35 AM.

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