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Internet Debate re Tailoring Titles Discussed in Jeffery Diduch's Blog

bespoke tailoring tailoring functions RTW manufacturing bespoke patternmaking RTW patternmaking bespoke tailoring v. RTW bespoke tailoring job titles RTW design job titles forum member blog epithets

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#1 tailleuse

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Posted 20 November 2014 - 03:54 AM

Jeffery Diduch, a forum member, just posted an interesting and informative (to laypeople) discussion of titles and functions in bespoke tailoring as compared to RTW design and manufacturing.  It can be found here.  At the beginning of his post, he alludes to an Internet debate:

 

"There is a discussion going on in another part of the internet and a question was asked which someone felt I may be able to answer. I would rather not wade in to that mess of a discussion, but the question still deserves a bit of an answer. For serious clothing nerds only.

"The question revolves around job titles in men’s tailored clothing, a business which is, in some respects, stuck in a bit of a time warp. I know a person who was deeply insulted by another colleague who called him a “patternmaker”, despite the fact that he does, in fact, make patterns. “Paper cutter” and “calzolaio” (shoemaker) are other, similarly pointed, epithets in the tailoring trade. To understand, we have to back up about 150 years. ..."

 

(emphasis added)

 

Does anyone have a link to the referenced discussion? I'm just enough of a serious clothing nerd to be interested.  :)

 

 


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#2 tailleuse

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Posted 21 November 2014 - 12:42 AM

So no one knows anything about this "raging" debate being conducted on web in regard to the proper use of tailoring job titles? :-)  I did a simple search, but couldn't find anything.


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#3 Martin Stall

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Posted 21 November 2014 - 01:23 AM

It's probably in either the London Lounge, or Styleforum


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Sure, I believe your work rocks, but... have you considered, how are you going to sell that stuff?

http: under construction...

#4 Schneidergott

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Posted 21 November 2014 - 06:16 AM

Hi there!

 

Jeffery put a link to that discussion in the comment section.

 

As usual, when SFers are talking about tailoring (and in particular about Rubinacci and other tailors in Naples) it doesn't stay on topic for long. Actually, it's not worth reading all the posts (I've managed to skip pages and it still felt like a soap opera, where it takes days until the coffee is ready...  :spiteful: and you don't miss much along the way).

 

Basically it's about the former head-cutter of Rubinacci in Naples doing his own business now, along with his son. And a lot of folks wanting to buy because he is cheaper than his former employer, while keeping the Rubinacci style aura.

 

I think that "designer" has a negative sound to it because it's so easy to become one. There are plenty of fashion schools that hand out diploma to often talentless, yet well heeled, students.

AFAIK, the term "Designer" can be used by anyone, since it's not protected, unless you claim to be one with a diploma (and you haven't gotten one).


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"Nur der ist Meister seiner Kunst, der immer sucht, das Gute zu verbessern und niemals glaubt, das Beste schon zu haben."
"Only he is a master of his art who always seeks to improve the good and never believes to have the best already"

http://www.dressedwell.net/ It's snarky, but fun.


#5 greger

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Posted 21 November 2014 - 07:31 AM

It is kinda like those with a Ph.D in business and yet Bill Gates made more. So much that a college education means what? And he never finished his computer programming degree. After he did so much better they later probably just gave him degrees.

#6 Schneidergott

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Posted 22 November 2014 - 12:45 AM

So, tailleuse, did you waste several hours reading that SF thread?

 

It always makes me wonder how these folks find the time to spend on that forum during their working day.

Normal people with a regular job would probably get fired for posting during working hours.


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"Nur der ist Meister seiner Kunst, der immer sucht, das Gute zu verbessern und niemals glaubt, das Beste schon zu haben."
"Only he is a master of his art who always seeks to improve the good and never believes to have the best already"

http://www.dressedwell.net/ It's snarky, but fun.


#7 greger

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Posted 22 November 2014 - 12:35 PM

Does make one wonder with all the time they waste there "on the clock" that they still earn enough to buy custom/bespoke and not git fired. It nothing new. It has been happening for hundreds of years, nowadays, with the Internet.

#8 Der Zuschneider

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Posted 22 November 2014 - 12:36 PM

So, tailleuse, did you waste several hours reading that SF thread?

 

It always makes me wonder how these folks find the time to spend on that forum during their working day.

Normal people with a regular job would probably get fired for posting during working hours.

 

Die sind alle auf Harz 4 und wollen tolle Anzuege. LOL

All of Harz 4, want cheap suits. LOL


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#9 Schneidergott

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Posted 22 November 2014 - 05:29 PM

 

Die sind alle auf Harz 4 und wollen tolle Anzuege. LOL

All of Harz 4, want cheap suits. LOL

 

People on Hartz IV (benefits in Germany, which will allow you a maximum of 924,- Euro a month. If you loose your job and your flat is slightly too big or expensive you have to find a new one or you won't get Hartz IV) don't have the money to buy suits.

 

My guess is that the majority of those who post on SF and can actually afford bespoke/ custom will charge their clientele by the hour, and it's not a rate that a tailor charges.

What makes these "discussions" so boring is the fact that sooner or later the usual suspects take over.


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"Nur der ist Meister seiner Kunst, der immer sucht, das Gute zu verbessern und niemals glaubt, das Beste schon zu haben."
"Only he is a master of his art who always seeks to improve the good and never believes to have the best already"

http://www.dressedwell.net/ It's snarky, but fun.


#10 greger

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Posted 23 November 2014 - 10:45 AM

Decades ago I was reading some of the names of job positions in rtw. Lots of names, which I think some were developed for tax purposes.
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#11 tailleuse

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Posted 26 November 2014 - 02:50 AM

It's probably in either the London Lounge, or Styleforum

 

Thank you.  I thought it might be Ask Andy. After I couldn't find it after a simple search I didn't want to waste a lot of time trying to hunt it down.  I am perfectly capable of that. :-)


Edited by tailleuse, 26 November 2014 - 02:55 AM.

Dignity. Always, dignity. (Singin' in the Rain)


#12 tailleuse

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Posted 26 November 2014 - 02:52 AM

Hi there!

 

Jeffery put a link to that discussion in the comment section.

 

 

 

Thanks a lot.  I'll have to go back and look it up.  :-)


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#13 tailleuse

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Posted 26 November 2014 - 02:53 AM

So, tailleuse, did you waste several hours reading that SF thread?

 

It always makes me wonder how these folks find the time to spend on that forum during their working day.

Normal people with a regular job would probably get fired for posting during working hours.

 

I haven't yet, because I've been busy and didn't want to get distracted.  But thanks very much for telling me about it.


Dignity. Always, dignity. (Singin' in the Rain)


#14 tailleuse

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Posted 27 November 2014 - 06:39 AM

Hi there!

 

Jeffery put a link to that discussion in the comment section.

 

As usual, when SFers are talking about tailoring (and in particular about Rubinacci and other tailors in Naples) it doesn't stay on topic for long. Actually, it's not worth reading all the posts (I've managed to skip pages and it still felt like a soap opera, where it takes days until the coffee is ready...  :spiteful: and you don't miss much along the way).

 

Basically it's about the former head-cutter of Rubinacci in Naples doing his own business now, along with his son. And a lot of folks wanting to buy because he is cheaper than his former employer, while keeping the Rubinacci style aura.

 

I think that "designer" has a negative sound to it because it's so easy to become one. There are plenty of fashion schools that hand out diploma to often talentless, yet well heeled, students.

AFAIK, the term "Designer" can be used by anyone, since it's not protected, unless you claim to be one with a diploma (and you haven't gotten one).

 

 

Thank you for the summary.  I tried to read it, but there were 84 -- count 'em -- screens and my computer loads slowly. I'll have to be satisfied with your and Jeffery Diduch's descriptions. :-)   


Dignity. Always, dignity. (Singin' in the Rain)


#15 Schneidergott

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Posted 27 November 2014 - 07:14 AM

As so often when it's drape related (Rubinacci, A&S to name the most prominent firms) you will find little new info in those threads, so you didn't miss much.

It's basically a significant number of posts praising the style and the firms mentioned above. And showing off by those who can afford their stuff. :)


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"Nur der ist Meister seiner Kunst, der immer sucht, das Gute zu verbessern und niemals glaubt, das Beste schon zu haben."
"Only he is a master of his art who always seeks to improve the good and never believes to have the best already"

http://www.dressedwell.net/ It's snarky, but fun.


#16 Henry Hall

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Posted 01 December 2014 - 10:42 AM

My guess is that the majority of those who post on SF and can actually afford bespoke/ custom will charge their clientele by the hour, and it's not a rate that a tailor charges.

What makes these "discussions" so boring is the fact that sooner or later the usual suspects take over.

 

I hate Styleforum. The presence of those "usual suspects" makes it nauseating. A few of those with money to burn (or who want to give that impression) really play the guru, writing in aphorisms and gathering sycophants.

 

If you hear about a heated discussion concerning turn-ups vs no turn-ups or a 200 page argument about whether you should wear a tie with jeans, you can be sure it happened on Styleforum.


Each phenomenon which is taken up should be treated with as much thoroughness as possible at that standpoint... One thing at a time and that done well!

 

- Otto Jespersen (How to Teach a Foreign Language).


#17 greger

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Posted 01 December 2014 - 06:24 PM

Have to remember they really are a bunch of silly guys. Furthermore, they talk customer talk. Makers talk is very different. Watching Despos interactions with these guys is a good lesson. Customers talk about what is important to them. It is the tailors job to figure out how. Any business man will tell you with out customers is game over. Therefore, customer peer groups are good. The more they talk, even if it is goofy, the more they buy. Does Despos care about the rubish they talk about, then neither should you. All you want is they walk through your door and hand over fistfulls of large sums of money.

#18 Schneidergott

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Posted 02 December 2014 - 07:11 AM

Still, those debates become rather boring (and highly repetitive) once the "usual suspects" show up, praising each other (and, of course, the tailors that made them) for wearing that specific style of garment .

 

What really upsets me is that they cannot stand the slightest criticizm. Try to point out the flaws (like not cutting for a down shoulder) and you'll soon be facing the wrath of the "gurus" and their followers.

Another thing is them creating the hype over certain style features without actually knowing what they are supposed to do. One example is the extended front dart. Which works well orf normal or sporty figures, maybe even corpulent ones, unless those people have large hips. Same with unpadded shoulders and the manica mappina, which do not look good on everyone.

But due to the "dictate" of (in this case) Neapolitan style created on SF those elements are a must.


"Nur der ist Meister seiner Kunst, der immer sucht, das Gute zu verbessern und niemals glaubt, das Beste schon zu haben."
"Only he is a master of his art who always seeks to improve the good and never believes to have the best already"

http://www.dressedwell.net/ It's snarky, but fun.






Also tagged with one or more of these keywords: bespoke tailoring, tailoring functions, RTW manufacturing, bespoke patternmaking, RTW patternmaking, bespoke tailoring v. RTW, bespoke tailoring job titles, RTW design job titles, forum member blog, epithets

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