Jump to content


Photo

Why you shouldn't start coat making topics in the Basic Apprentices' Forum

coat making professionals

  • This topic is locked This topic is locked
47 replies to this topic

#19 tailleuse

tailleuse

    Master

  • Senior Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,059 posts
  • Gender:Not Telling
  • Interests:Tailoring and couture.

Posted 27 January 2015 - 12:07 PM

Actually, and philosophising aside, I think the real frustration boils down to this:

 

In the basic apprentices forum there are no coatmaking topics allowed, just trousers and waistcoats. Fair enough, that's really a lot to be getting on with for anyone. But then members who are not professionals can read the other forums (including the trousers and waistcoat forum), but can't even ask a question or make a remark to any single discussion; not even about trousers/waistcoats.

 

Could be the reason the basic apprentice forum has more posts than any other: twice as many posts as the coatmaker forum and ten times as many as the trouser/waistcoat forum (call it "reduced clutter" or a ghost town, your choice). Some of the discussions in that last forum are not beyond some amateurs and could probably be beneficial to the learning process. I'm glad I get to read it at least...

 

Having said that, I also see the reason for having a basic apprentices section. Sort of a proving ground encouraging people to walk before they run.

 

Occasionally, I get frustrated when someone asks a question in the advanced forums and I have the answer. (It's usually supplies-related.)  If it were really important I could PM the member.


Edited by tailleuse, 28 January 2015 - 04:10 AM.

  • ThomD likes this

Dignity. Always, dignity. (Singin' in the Rain)


#20 tailleuse

tailleuse

    Master

  • Senior Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,059 posts
  • Gender:Not Telling
  • Interests:Tailoring and couture.

Posted 27 January 2015 - 12:29 PM

Coming from outside my take is that the restriction is unnecessary, but obviously appropriate to this space.  Apprenticeship has all but disappeared in most craft settings. Some crafts completely lost the plot, and had to be re-invented at places like Williamsburg. But there are other crafts, where the work never completely left, and the prior arrangement of transfer of information, even if largely gone is still felt.  Tailoring seems to be the latter.

 

Apprentices, where for the most part children.  These days, not even children get treated like children any more, in the West.  The apprenticeship model no longer really works.  And it verges on creepy when you add in the internet.  On the one extreme you have the Kahn Academy boldly going where education has never gone before.  At the other extreme what is the role-playing, digital, equivalent of putting a Bergen apprentice to sleep at night in a drawer.

 

...Everything is entertainment these days.  Not everyone seriously wants to become tailors, they just want a little side entertainment.  Of course it isn't fun if you admit that going in.  But this place was created for other reasons, and doesn't want to be the  Fine Woodworking of tailoring, I get it.  It sure does reduce the clutter in posts.

 

I waste too much time on other parts of the web and can attest that there are a whole lot of people out there who suffer from entitlement. They feel entitled to unqualified support on every one of their sewing endeavors even when it is manifestly obvious that their skills are rudimentary at best. If you tell them that it will be difficult to sew a wedding gown or a velvet bustier with zilch experience, they get mad.  I see people who are fitting trousers that look awful and there are readers who are raving about the great job the OP did.  I usually suggest they come here for help and/or hire someone with experience, but those suggestions more often than not are are ignored. They always think they know better or they simply don't care. 

 

,

Even with Khan Academy, you can't jump from lesson to lesson willy-nilly if you really want to learn something. Discipline is required.


Edited by tailleuse, 27 January 2015 - 12:31 PM.

  • adelrio likes this

Dignity. Always, dignity. (Singin' in the Rain)


#21 ThomD

ThomD

    Umsie

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 46 posts

Posted 27 January 2015 - 05:10 PM

I agree with you entirely, and have probably played all the parts at one time or another.  But it is up to the people involved to decide what they want to do about it.  Some people are just learning stuff which I think is proven to increase your dopamine, or some such.  Other people like to show how much they know.  I know that answering a million question has improved both my writing, (yes it could be worse), and my knowledge. 

 

I built a trimaran sailboat and didn't finish the rigging which is a convergence of many skills, some of which I didn't have.  I got injured at the time and spend years on forums, expertly answering people's question.  In a sense a total waste of time compared to the stuff I did before the internet was invented.  But one day it hit me, there wasn't a single thing that could come up about my boat that if I were asked a question on it at that time, I wouldn't be able to give tens ways to do it, with variations extending to different skill levels or craft preferences.  That was what the net did for me through all the blather. 

 

Anyway this stuff drives pros crazy, particularly if they work in a conservative trade.  It makes sense for a place like this to give them a place to be without getting driven underground.  The retail internet was born amid complaints that letting the hoi polloi play would ruin it, and it will not doubt be a sentiment that will continue to be heard on the last day.


  • tailleuse likes this

#22 ThomD

ThomD

    Umsie

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 46 posts

Posted 27 January 2015 - 05:15 PM

 

Occasionally, I get frustrated when someone asks a question in the advanced forums and I have the answer. (It's usually supplies related.)  If it were really important I could PM the member.

 Ditto, one option would be for them to not discuss stuff like where to get JJ needles behind closed doors, as an example.  There are probably a million quilters with their hands in the air on that one.  But I suppose next thing someone offers an opinion (these needles are better), and then tiffs would start about who is entitled to say.  So keeping the firewalls up makes sense.  Still there seem to be a fair number of people in the pro area who say they aren't tailors (allowed), or don't know what some basic item is (strange).


Edited by ThomD, 27 January 2015 - 05:18 PM.

  • tailleuse likes this

#23 jukes

jukes

    Pro

  • Senior Professional
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 1,164 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:London Suburbs

Posted 27 January 2015 - 05:49 PM

 Still there seem to be a fair number of people in the pro area who say they aren't tailors (allowed), or don't know what some basic item is (strange).

 

I used to be a tailor, not anymore. When i trained, my first three months were spent on a bench, hand sewing for eight hours a day. How many who wish to learn would be prepared to do that, not many ( i guarantee after 1 week most would give up) yet they come on here and expect to learn how to make a coat. 

Think about it.

If you are not prepared to learn the basics properly in any trade, you will never master it.


  • tailleuse, Schneiderfrei and ThomD like this

#24 Alievens

Alievens

    Apprentice

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 114 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Belgium

Posted 27 January 2015 - 06:28 PM

 Still there seem to be a fair number of people in the pro area who say they aren't tailors (allowed), or don't know what some basic item is (strange).

 

I guess they've been on the forum from before the rules changed?

 

but when was the last time somebody got "promoted" to get access to the advanced apprentice forum?

it's uncomfortably quiet in there...



#25 greger

greger

    Master

  • Senior Professional
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,122 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Washington, USA

Posted 27 January 2015 - 07:42 PM

Some people want to jump the gun. Trousers are hard enough to make for a beginner. They're far enough away from the eyes that what tiny mistakes that are left they won't be seen. Collars, lapels, shoulders, sleeve crowns or caps are close to the eyes and every error will show. The best tailors leave nothing to chance for the aim is perfection. Small boys were forced to perfection with the first garment and everyone there after. They were put on the bench made to sew dead straight seams. Only then could they start making. Lots of practice pockets, buttonholes, collar foundations and wherever the child needed extra.

Here, they come and go. Nobody forces them to do anything. If they are sloppy, because they are not willing to work at it, I'm not interested. Perfection for some people is a requirement. I don't mind people leaving out some bells and whistles as long as of what they do of sewing is perfect. Fitting, so to say, is a whole nother ball of wax; people come here of every shape, and somebody showing you hands on makes a world of difference. Showing cuts out a lot of words. It takes time to think out answer of which I'm not getting paid for. One person, before this site, I spent months writing and drawing pictures with no pay. It seemed like it would be simple and a rare question now and then, so much for that idea.

Edited by greger, 27 January 2015 - 07:44 PM.


#26 jukes

jukes

    Pro

  • Senior Professional
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 1,164 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:London Suburbs

Posted 27 January 2015 - 07:54 PM

To get promoted you have to put in the time, effort and prove your worth, as all trainee,s have to before they move on. Maybe there is too much talking and not enough actual work being shown. Which seems to be the standard now (in all trades)

 

The majority of today's training methods in trades and professions, is by course work ie writing. This is especially true in Electrical and Engineering trades, over here its called NVQ qualifications, which tradesmen have labelled "Not Very Qualified" because when they finish their time (approx 2 years) they are sent to carry out their work, and when they hit a problem, they have no idea what to do and run out the door, leaving customers unhappy and frustrated.

 

Which is why goods are being manufactured cheaply so they do not last ten minutes or can be thrown away as opposed to repaired or refurbished.

 

We are in transition where the future will not require skilled people who can demand a decent wage, instead we will have an inferior workforce who will do as they are told (or be replaced) for very little money.

 

The only winners are the people at the top who are the architects of this change.

 

Rant over.


  • MANSIE WAUCH and tombennett like this

#27 Alievens

Alievens

    Apprentice

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 114 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Belgium

Posted 27 January 2015 - 08:13 PM

To get promoted you have to put in the time, effort and prove your worth, as all trainee,s have to before they move on. Maybe there is too much talking and not enough actual work being shown. Which seems to be the standard now (in all trades)

 

Work is being shown in the link in my signature. (http://alievens.tumblr.com)

After several requests, starting almost a year ago, still no reply from moderator.


  • Murkiavelli likes this

#28 jukes

jukes

    Pro

  • Senior Professional
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 1,164 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:London Suburbs

Posted 27 January 2015 - 08:31 PM

You should PM Sator or SG 



#29 Schneidergott

Schneidergott

    Master

  • Moderator
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,680 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Scotland

Posted 28 January 2015 - 05:06 AM

You should PM Sator or SG 

 

PMing me is of no use since I don't have the powers to promote members... And I'm sure that Sator is busy with his professional and his private life, which are his priority.

Keep in mind that without him (and his regular payments) this forum wouldn't exist. There are probably bloggers out there who managed to monetize their "expertise" in tailoring, while Sator has kept this forum ad free. Not to mention that putting up diagrams, translations and such take an enormous amount of time and many people seem to take such things for granted and/ or expect to have everything explained in detail.

 

To me it seems that the majority of people either don't want to or simply cannot figure things out for themselves. Whether it's a hobby or a real trade, most are happy with what they have been told.

 

I am aware that it can be frustrating to be prohibited an answer to an urgent problem, but trust me, it's equally frustrating to see the same "problems" showing up again and again.

 

Starting with smaller sewing projects will eventually give you the skill and mindset to advance to bigger ones, and making a proper coat is such a big one.


  • tailleuse likes this

"Nur der ist Meister seiner Kunst, der immer sucht, das Gute zu verbessern und niemals glaubt, das Beste schon zu haben."
"Only he is a master of his art who always seeks to improve the good and never believes to have the best already"

http://www.dressedwell.net/ It's snarky, but fun.


#30 Alievens

Alievens

    Apprentice

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 114 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Belgium

Posted 28 January 2015 - 06:29 AM

Well, I didn't want it to sound like complaining!

I respect and appreciate these rules.

Sator obviously has no responsibility or commitment towards anyone.

No one forced me to join this forum and I can always start my own :LMAO:

 

To me it seems that the majority of people either don't want to or simply cannot figure things out for themselves. Whether it's a hobby or a real trade, most are happy with what they have been told.

 

Don't know if that's a majority. Those that are capable of solving their own problems are often invisible.


  • whizkid23 and Alkoreiel like this

#31 jukes

jukes

    Pro

  • Senior Professional
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 1,164 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:London Suburbs

Posted 28 January 2015 - 06:48 AM

PMing me is of no use since I don't have the powers to promote members... And I'm sure that Sator is busy with his professional and his private life, which are his priority.
Keep in mind that without him (and his regular payments) this forum wouldn't exist. There are probably bloggers out there who managed to monetize their "expertise" in tailoring, while Sator has kept this forum ad free. Not to mention that putting up diagrams, translations and such take an enormous amount of time and many people seem to take such things for granted and/ or expect to have everything explained in detail.
 
To me it seems that the majority of people either don't want to or simply cannot figure things out for themselves. Whether it's a hobby or a real trade, most are happy with what they have been told.
 
I am aware that it can be frustrating to be prohibited an answer to an urgent problem, but trust me, it's equally frustrating to see the same "problems" showing up again and again.
 
Starting with smaller sewing projects will eventually give you the skill and mindset to advance to bigger ones, and making a proper coat is such a big one.

So how does someone who can show they have advanced, move on if there is no one to do the moving.
  • Schneiderfrei likes this

#32 greger

greger

    Master

  • Senior Professional
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,122 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Washington, USA

Posted 28 January 2015 - 07:35 AM

Some trades have to be hands on. Welding, building buildings, teaching skiing, etc. People who are book learned can be a problem (some have wisdom and some do not).

#33 greger

greger

    Master

  • Senior Professional
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,122 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Washington, USA

Posted 28 January 2015 - 07:38 AM

So how does someone who can show they have advanced, move on if there is no one to do the moving.


Sator should ask around some so people do get bumped up. He made the rule, which means he should honor it.

#34 tailleuse

tailleuse

    Master

  • Senior Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,059 posts
  • Gender:Not Telling
  • Interests:Tailoring and couture.

Posted 31 January 2015 - 07:33 AM

 When i trained, my first three months were spent on a bench, hand sewing for eight hours a day. 

 

What were you doing?  The same tasks again and again? Varied bits and pieces?  Granting a minimum time commitment (which would be what?) is there a "smart" way to learn tailoring?


Dignity. Always, dignity. (Singin' in the Rain)


#35 tailleuse

tailleuse

    Master

  • Senior Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,059 posts
  • Gender:Not Telling
  • Interests:Tailoring and couture.

Posted 31 January 2015 - 07:38 AM

 

PMing me is of no use since I don't have the powers to promote members... 

 

 

And here I thought you were some kind of god ... of tailoring.   :D


Dignity. Always, dignity. (Singin' in the Rain)


#36 tailleuse

tailleuse

    Master

  • Senior Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,059 posts
  • Gender:Not Telling
  • Interests:Tailoring and couture.

Posted 31 January 2015 - 07:43 AM

Some trades have to be hands on. Welding, building buildings, teaching skiing, etc. People who are book learned can be a problem (some have wisdom and some do not).

 

People who are book-learned who think that book-learning trumps everything else are the problem. Many years ago, I watched a PBS program on the fashion industry. The host, a talking head in a mediocre suit, fumed about the outrageous prices charged by -- MERE DRESSMAKERS! I nodded. Now I know better, at least if the work is beautifully executed.


Dignity. Always, dignity. (Singin' in the Rain)





0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users