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#19 Schneidergott

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Posted 01 January 2015 - 08:22 AM

A while back they used 3D body scanner to remeasure the population in an attempt to achieve better fitting garments.

 

The overall results were pretty much the same in every country: People have become bigger (vertically and horizontally).

Why they needed a 3D scanner for that escapes me, but whatever (since it was pretty obvious, just look around)!

 

The funny thing is, by using an "average" of all measurements taken they are not better off than before. There will still be a lot of people that won't fit into the clothes, simply because one (or more) of their measurements won't be "average"!

 

Another problem is the streamlining of production, which means that the lines of the seams need to smooth, so that even untrained staff can sew the garments together in relatively short time.

 

Speaking of time: If you consider that, for example, a MTM suit is made in a few hours and you pay between 300,- to 1500.- Euro (depending on cloth and company, maybe even more), paying 2500,- to 7000,- Euro/ $/ GBP is still the better value for money, given that there are easily 10x more hours in a full bespoke suit.

 

I really don't know why certain companies (real tailors or high end RTW ) market hand work as being the only true solution and the main factor or ingredient for the value of their product.

 

Both methods of sewing (hand and machine) have their benefits, so use them accordingly. It shouldn't be about saving time, but getting a better result. And with the fine cloths today, the machine definitely creates the finer seams. Leave the handwork for areas of the garment where they make a difference for the better, like the lapel or the chest canvas or the outer finishing (edgestitching and buttonholes).


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"Nur der ist Meister seiner Kunst, der immer sucht, das Gute zu verbessern und niemals glaubt, das Beste schon zu haben."
"Only he is a master of his art who always seeks to improve the good and never believes to have the best already"

http://www.dressedwell.net/ It's snarky, but fun.


#20 greger

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Posted 01 January 2015 - 04:05 PM

Some, it seems, are calling hand work machined, but not jigged or some other automated machine work.

As far as completely hand sewn (using a thimble) I have seen that by the old school when it is worn and I think, without doubt, it is the best. Tailors today are trying to compete with m2m, so use machines. I think tailors would do better with different levels and not compete. It is like a tennis player out on the soccer field chasing a soccer ball with a tennis racket as though he is playing tennis.

As far as different levels go there can be lots of levels with machines to vary price.

For me tailoring has always been custom and good fit. Something rtw and m2m doesn't do. Method of construction doesn't matter as long as it is honest. This gives tremendous scope. If you are over worked you can be picky. The tailor who made the 11 year old a simple cotton coat probably spent two hours or less wis-banging it out with the sewing machine, including one fitting discussion of what the child wanted and making the pattern. The old tailor had an agile mind. If you want to make to a certain standard find a city that allows you to do that. Otherwise, have an open mind.

#21 Schneidergott

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Posted 01 January 2015 - 07:02 PM

I know of at least 2 attempts to sell fully hand sewn suits at according prices (roughly 40000 GBP or $60000.00), but I don't know if they have been successful with that. At the moment one of them has lowered the price to a more modest 16000,- GBP.

 

http://www.williamwe...ott.com/prices/

 

I don't know how, when and why this over romanticized view of tailors/ tailoring came to exist, but it doesn't reflect the reality then and now.

Tailors were (and still are) usually at the lower end of the income range and were often ridiculed for being poor and/ or stingy in the past. People would send the kids that were not strong enough to work on the farms (or in the mines or factories) to apprentice under a tailor. Pay was very low and the majority of them had a poor life.

In the decades after WWII many bespoke tailors went to work for RTW factories, simply because those paid up to 3x and more of what they would have earned in a tailor shop.

Only those who really loved their work and trade stayed and continued despite the mentioned downsides.

 

Have a look here: http://www.thisismon...al-average.html

 

To find the "tailors and dressmakers" entry you have to scroll down quite a bit, until you find #310. Impressive, isn't it?


"Nur der ist Meister seiner Kunst, der immer sucht, das Gute zu verbessern und niemals glaubt, das Beste schon zu haben."
"Only he is a master of his art who always seeks to improve the good and never believes to have the best already"

http://www.dressedwell.net/ It's snarky, but fun.


#22 MANSIE WAUCH

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Posted 01 January 2015 - 11:51 PM

Have a look here: http://www.thisismon...al-average.html

To find the "tailors and dressmakers" entry you have to scroll down quite a bit, until you find #310. Impressive, isn't it?

 

  SG!  I cannot believe that Train and tram drivers get more money than the legal profession!



#23 greger

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Posted 02 January 2015 - 11:21 AM

Recently saw a tailors website that had a price for completely hand sewn - $10,000. How well it is sewn who knows. There other methods got progressively less. Thought I knew where the website was, but couldn't find it. For some reason I thought it was in Canada - Toronto.

If I were paying someone to make a coat or suit in an Italian video I saw one person who could properly hand sew garments. The others there hand sewing not something I care for. The sewing machine is so alluring and does a good job, speedier which brings the cost down reasonably. For many hand sewn is not worth the cost, so there is nothing to argue about. SG, those high prices you mentioned above are clearly outrageous, even with expensive cloth. By far the most important thing about tailoring is fit.

#24 Schneidergott

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Posted 02 January 2015 - 08:56 PM

The first version of 40000,- GBP included another suit made, as a test run if you like. And I'm sure it also covered the costs for flights and hotels (I guess in Arabic countries?) for fittings.

 

High end RTW makers use factory methods, so there are sewing machines and presses around.

Neapolitan jackets (even the bespoke ones) are (relatively) easy to make, since they skip some steps that would be present in the more northern making processes.

Even the much praised Rubinacci tailors use machines to sew their jackets, but they are smart when it comes to marketing, often telling rubbish about other countries' make and style.

 

 

Since Luca's jacket doesn't break at the shoulders (and judging by how the sleeve crown behaves) I'd say that there is some stiff support in the shoulders to hold them up.

And "not hiding defects, but turning them into merits" is just good, successful marketing.


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"Nur der ist Meister seiner Kunst, der immer sucht, das Gute zu verbessern und niemals glaubt, das Beste schon zu haben."
"Only he is a master of his art who always seeks to improve the good and never believes to have the best already"

http://www.dressedwell.net/ It's snarky, but fun.


#25 greger

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Posted 03 January 2015 - 08:05 AM

Read that the Mediterranean tailors are different, which includes "less". The clothing environment has different expectations. I think the further south one goes even more "less". Some think the rules of one area is correct, so everywhere else is wrong. And then the rules change. Grandpa saw the body coats get replaced with the lowly lounge coat. It was a challenge to bring it up to frock standard, though different. Bibbed shirts were common. All you know them for is black & white tie. How many older people thought the young were bringing the standards down? You think they're high standards but not according to those who woar body coats most of their lives. So I was told to look at the lowly and figure how to bring them up, should it start going that way. SR never, it seems to me, understood American men's world of clothing. So, they have placed themselves on a higher rung than they are.

Rubinacci, did they even know about drape until 'Iammatt' showed up? And then they had to figure it out? Mafoofan came along and they became friends, and why he went to Rubinacci. Don't remember how Iammatt ended up with Rubinacci for a tailor. These guys knew nothing about tailoring. How would they know about good and poor choices? One person says this and another that and somebody something else - who's right? Plus they want to be part of a group. For not knowing what drape is, and figuring it out - how well did they do? How well would you have done? Rubinacci has let out of their shop a lot of errors (back room tailors are not all trustworthy). Sent by mail and then comes back for corrections. Have Matt and Foo taken all their coats back for corrections? Other tailoring firms have had problems with back room tailors too. It's nothing new. The two above have shown pictures of errors they took back to be fixed but, to start with another tailor to make their ideals is a lot of work, time and $$$$. I believe Foo has made it very clear he doesn't know how good they are. Just because he likes them doesn't mean he thinks they are the best.

Some clothes are made for certain purposes. If you don't know what those purposes are it may indeed look like rubbish. If you understand the purposes then you can decide if the tailor did well or towards the rubbish end.

Edited by greger, 03 January 2015 - 08:12 AM.


#26 Schneidergott

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Posted 03 January 2015 - 08:43 AM

Historically, Italians have worn suits that were pretty much the same as elsewhere in Europe, and their make was heavily influenced by the way it was done in London.

 

And just like Scholte in London before, Attolini started to reduce the internals of a coat when he was working for Rubinacci in the 30's, and many Neapolitan tailors copied that style when making for their customers (I guess price has always been an issue). And I'm pretty sure the tailors at Rubinacci knew about drape before Iammatt or the Foo were born.

 

The problem with a certain style is that it may not look good on everybody. The differences between the British and Italian pattern systems are negligible, it's more a matter of adjusting them to the proportions of the people in the respective countries. 

Tall, slender men look better in a jacket with a more structured cut, and when they are of a light skin colour, medium to dark blue shades are the most flattering (at least I find that). In the same way the Mediterranean men look pretty much good in anything when it comes to colours, and that's why Italian weavers offer such a wide range of more colourful cloths.

 

What bothers me is that many confuse a structured cut with a hard make, cause those days are gone. Many tailors now use lighter body canvasses and finer horsehair, so the chest turns out softer, though keeping it's shape.

A well made jacket will give the customer any comfort he wants, no matter how it's constructed. But it's up to him to decide which style he wants. The trouble is, that many fall into that (clever) marketing trap and think they need a Neapolitan style jacket for comfort.

 

I find it quite funny that Luca says that Neapolitan jackets don't come off the neck, and at the same time it does on his jacket (he must have noticed, because he's pulling it back in place)!


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"Nur der ist Meister seiner Kunst, der immer sucht, das Gute zu verbessern und niemals glaubt, das Beste schon zu haben."
"Only he is a master of his art who always seeks to improve the good and never believes to have the best already"

http://www.dressedwell.net/ It's snarky, but fun.


#27 greger

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Posted 03 January 2015 - 09:48 AM

"A well made jacket will give the customer any comfort he wants, no matter how it's constructed."

I think it is more about what kind of comfort one wants to feel.

It seems odd Luca wasn't put through the tailoring process. He is learning salesmanship and business owner. As a whole it is possible to put out good work. Think others have done better. But, it makes sense to know the whole business, not just certain parts.

#28 Schneidergott

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Posted 03 January 2015 - 05:36 PM

"Well made" doesn't just mean the workmanship that went into sewing it. Although there seem to be a lot out there who start drooling when they see hand stitches in a garment.

And it means more than just ticking the usual boxes, like "individual pattern" or "hand cut", that is relatively easy to achieve and doesn't necessarily mean that the garment fits well in the right places.

And yes, "comfort" is a very individual thing, and the tailor has to find out what the customer wants/ needs, which isn't always easy.

 

The Rubinaccis for sure are more on the salesperson side of the business, but being around tailors for so long I'm sure they know a thing or two. Whether that is sufficient to always deliver top notch results, I can't tell. Being who they are, I am sure they can get away with a lot more "mistakes" than others.

But, they are very successful and keep their tailors busy, so not much wrong with that.


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"Nur der ist Meister seiner Kunst, der immer sucht, das Gute zu verbessern und niemals glaubt, das Beste schon zu haben."
"Only he is a master of his art who always seeks to improve the good and never believes to have the best already"

http://www.dressedwell.net/ It's snarky, but fun.


#29 greger

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Posted 04 January 2015 - 10:16 AM

One of my cousins in Europe got out of the business because he couldn't stand some of the customers.

Getting a two way street (tailor and customer) isn't always possible. And, it only takes one to mess it up.

Rubinaccis is a strange business because he is with the customer involved with the fitting and he is not a cutter.




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