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How common is this?


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#1 Learner

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Posted 23 April 2015 - 05:10 PM

Following a link from Matt Spaiser's The Suits of James Bond, I came across this on D. Major Bespoke Tailors's website.  For their initial baste fitting, the entire coat shell, including sleeves, but not including canvas is assembled.  Do many tailors do this?


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#2 A TAILOR

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Posted 24 April 2015 - 02:12 AM

HI LEARNER

I DO NOT KNOW OF ANY TAILOR THAT WILL DO A FIRST FITTING WITHOUT THE CANVAS.


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#3 jukes

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Posted 24 April 2015 - 02:39 AM

Yup. skeleton baste, don't see so much of it these days.


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#4 lewisblank

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Posted 27 April 2015 - 09:22 PM

This is a standard first fitting its just to check the balance

the canvas will be underneath but I would presume it is not padded 



#5 jukes

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Posted 28 April 2015 - 12:08 AM

There is no canvas, as can be seen from the link to D Majors site.



#6 Der Zuschneider

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Posted 28 April 2015 - 01:33 PM

Rock of Eye draft could need a skeleton baste, nothing wrong with that.

When the customer is close by you could make a couple of fits, if he don't mind. Then you are always on the right side.


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#7 Claire Shaeffer

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Posted 29 April 2015 - 01:23 AM

Questions about the terminology--

a skeleton baste is a baste without canvas

first baste has canvas which may or may not be padded.

 

Thanks, C


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#8 Learner

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Posted 29 April 2015 - 06:33 AM

Claire, in all of the literature that I've read, "skeleton baste", which is usually the first fitting, refers to the shell with canvas (because, after all, the canvas is the "skeleton" of the coat).  A simple Google search will confirm that most people use the term this way.

 

Being a self-taught novice, a shell fitting, with no canvas or facing would definitely be the way that I'd begin with a coat, but I think it's fairly rare for professional tailors to do it that way.


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#9 Henry Hall

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Posted 29 April 2015 - 07:09 PM

They may well be using an older term for newer practices. Skeleton in anything always means the bare bones, a coat with a canvas (which can more rightly be described as the 'heart' of the coat) is hardly a skeleton.


Each phenomenon which is taken up should be treated with as much thoroughness as possible at that standpoint... One thing at a time and that done well!

 

- Otto Jespersen (How to Teach a Foreign Language).


#10 Learner

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Posted 30 April 2015 - 05:15 PM

It's really a side issue, but in biology, skeleton means supporting structure, which, in a coat, is the canvas.  If you actually do Google "skeleton baste", you'll find that "they" include the likes of Anderson and Sheppard, Rory Duffy, and (less convincingly, given what he has to say on various other topics) Thomas Mahon

 

Other than in this thread, and possibly this blog post by Des Merrion, I have never encountered the term "skeleton baste" used specifically to refer to a baste fitting made without the canvas in place. 

 

As A TAILOR already stated, it seems to be quite an unusual practice, and yet, as I already mentioned, as a novice, I can see some very obvious benefits to doing it this way.  I can also imagine that there could very well be various reasons not to, and I was hoping that this thread might engender some informative comments about the pros and cons of the method, rather than devolving into a debate about the meaning of a particular term.



#11 Alievens

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Posted 30 April 2015 - 05:39 PM

... yet, as I already mentioned, as a novice, I can see some very obvious benefits to doing it this way. 

 

 

I can't think of any reason to exclude the canvas at first fitting other than saving the time it takes to baste it in and rip it out after fitting?



#12 jukes

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Posted 30 April 2015 - 06:57 PM

The four fitting stages are:

 

Skeleton 

Shell 

Forward 

Advanced


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#13 ChiTownTailor

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Posted 30 April 2015 - 07:20 PM

"Before the jacket is finished, try-ons are carried to ensure a perfect fit. The number of try-ons used is up to the fitter. Typically a "Skeleton baste" is first. The foreparts ARE CANVASED and the jacket is basted together. At the second fitting the pockets are added, hence it's name, "Pocket baste". The next is the "Forward baste" when the facings are added and the jacket is unlined. The final fitting is known as the "Fit bar finish", this is where the garment is complete bar the buttonholes and hand finishing."

From Rory Duffy.

Edited by ChiTownTailor, 30 April 2015 - 07:20 PM.

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-There might be a lot of tweed merchants out there making a bodger, but I'm sure not one of them. I'd rather be kicking my heels than making a pork on the mangle. No crushed beetles to be found here!

#14 Learner

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Posted 30 April 2015 - 07:23 PM

 

 

I can't think of any reason to exclude the canvas at first fitting other than saving the time it takes to baste it in and rip it out after fitting?

 

Well, the shape and size of the canvas is going to depend on the shape and size of the coat forepart.  As a novice, I might get that completely wrong. 

 

For real tailors, it might depend on how the canvas is typically cut and made up.  If the canvas is cut with a dart that coincides with the front dart (some say it should, some say it shouldn't, some say it depends) and the customer or the tailor decides that the front dart should be moved, then a new canvas will have to be cut.  NB: this isn't intended to be an authorative statement - it's an example of the kind of thing that could be being discussed here.  There clearly are reasons for conducting an initial fitting without a canvas in place, or a well established firm like D. Major wouldn't be doing it.

 

The four fitting stages are:

 

Skeleton 

Shell 

Forward 

Advanced

 

These are not universal terms, though, jukes.  Some authors distinguish between a "skeleton baste" and a "pocket baste" while others suggest that the two terms are interchangeable. If these were the terms - and fitting stages - that you were taught, please expand on the subject.  What's the objective at each fitting stage?


Edited by Learner, 30 April 2015 - 07:26 PM.


#15 ChiTownTailor

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Posted 30 April 2015 - 07:40 PM

Questions about the terminology--
a skeleton baste is a baste without canvas
first baste has canvas which may or may not be padded.
 
Thanks, C

A skeleton baste includes the the canvas!

 These are not universal terms, though, jukes.  Some authors distinguish between a "skeleton baste" and a "pocket baste" while others suggest that the two terms are interchangeable. If these were the terms - and fitting stages - that you were taught, please expand on the subject.  What's the objective at each fitting stage?

Where I am, we never include pockets in a skeleton baste! 😱 - and the lapels are not padded!
The exact placement of pockets are marked with chalk during the fitting of the skeleton...

Edited by ChiTownTailor, 30 April 2015 - 08:05 PM.

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#16 Henry Hall

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Posted 30 April 2015 - 08:11 PM

Seems the terminology is variably used. I find it odd to ask in a thread whether a shell without canvas is 'normal' then to contradict every answer. If you already know, why ask?


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Each phenomenon which is taken up should be treated with as much thoroughness as possible at that standpoint... One thing at a time and that done well!

 

- Otto Jespersen (How to Teach a Foreign Language).


#17 Learner

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Posted 30 April 2015 - 09:07 PM

I didn't ask whether it was normal.  Anybody who's researched the subject even cursorily knows that it's not at all normal. 

 

This is the second time that you've responded to posts that I've made in what I perceive as an unnecessarily confrontational manner.  I'm here to learn, not to brag.  If I challenge an assertion, it's because that assertion doesn't tally with what I've leaned so far.  I'm more than happy to concede to a well reasoned explanation of why what I've learned is incorrect, because it means that I've learned something new. 

 

I haven't "contradicted every answer".  I've suggested that jukes's use of the term "skeleton baste" is atypical.  I've also explained to you my reason for asserting that that the canvas might be considered the "skeleton", rather than "the heart" of a coat.  None of this is particularly enlightening to anybody. 


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#18 jukes

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Posted 30 April 2015 - 10:40 PM

I think people are confusing skeleton and shell, what most are describing on here is what used to be called a shell fitting which has canvases basted in and either pockets or no pockets, skeleton does not have either and is seen in the link in the OP.

These terms have been around for years. Probably just got confused along the way. In fact it seems the term shell has been changed to "first" fitting which means absolutely nothing, it also seems there are many who are unfamiliar with the term "skeleton Baste" (or fitting)


Edited by jukes, 30 April 2015 - 10:58 PM.

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