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#19 Alievens

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Posted 06 May 2015 - 05:06 PM

"But as we turn our attention to the art of cutting, for goodness sake let us drop (and try to rule out for ever afterwards) those misleading, but all-too-common, references to 'straight' and 'crooked' shoulders and similar descriptions of the seat angle. These terms are misnomers and, as such, best forgotten."

J. King Wilson, "The Art of Cutting and Fitting", 4th ed., page 9-10. (The terms appear again on page 21 and perhaps further on as well.)

 

I believe he said it from the point of view that crookening and straightening refer to both vertical and lateral adjustments.

If you slash a coat pattern at the chest and open it, you're moving the neck point up AND away from cf.

J. King Wilson believes that these are 2 different alterations and they should be applied separately with care.

eg. it may be possible to only raise the neck point but not necessarily move it laterally.

 

But, he also says "There is, however, a definite major vertical balance controlled by the seat-seam, but as the same seam controls our major lateral balance, we consider them as one ..."

As the alterations on fig 8 and fig 9 look very similar, you can conclude that it's ok to say crooked or straight trousers : )


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#20 Bespoke in Auckland

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Posted 07 May 2015 - 07:47 AM

Hi All

A wrote a long post, in reply to this and it seems to be hiding in the luminiferous ether out there somewhere and perhaps just as well. No one likes a smart-ass!

So with the risk of being mildly disliked......

Straightening and Crookening..... origins according to JP Thornton's International system of garment cutting 1st edition 1893  page 343 , no one knows and probably from pre- educational times.

Like a lot of tailoring terms, they are old and probably there are better words, fork for instance surely that is antiquated but the purpose of language is to be understood and all understand what this refers to.

The best definition of Straightening and Crookening I have seen to date is in JP Thorntons first edition, second edition 1894 is a much smaller book.

(Perhaps this has already been scanned by someone and posted?) Even here though JP calls to cutters to come up with a better understood term. 

Straightening and Crookening is all to do with the neck point. The effects of it are dramatic on a coat and the fact that it has very little to do with the back of a coat is why it is so important to get at least a vague understanding of it. I have not heard of a better term to cover this to date.

The trousers in question, the balance is definitely wrong. But who knows the poster could be standing more erect than normal for the photograph. The issue with the trouser is balance. One could argue that a trouser is tight and I think the fork is, but that is fashion, so virtually every trouser out there is tight somewhere.

The Modern Tailor Outfitter and Clothier 1st and 2nd editions 1928-1933 page 125 under the heading of "Straightness and Crookedness, or the Location of the neck point" " There is nothing which has caused so much discussion in the tailoring trade as the position of the neck point" 

In later editions 1949 and50( not sure about 3rd but would most likely be on either page ref) page 21-23

Several tailor and Cutters from the late 1940's through to the 1960's mention the difficulty of the neck point.

a straight coat is much harder to fit in my opinion, whereas a crooked coat hides much, but never fits anyone well.

I can understand why Mr King is so against the term. It is difficult to quantify but there is nothing better.

The fact that modern publications don't mention it...I did say speaks volumes in my lost post, but I think because they are attempting to teach on mass, to mention it makes the subject matter harder and perhaps for the student too difficult. Who knows.

Even after years in the trade, it can still be difficult to ascertain whether the "particular balance" is a case of front balance or straightening or crookening. How do you put to paper something that is theory and experience and eye. Something that you are unlikely to learn unless taught by another and have their experience  imparted with theory and molded over years of practice. That is why there is an art to tailoring and why it is also important to get the theory base. Tailoring is cause and effect and compromise. The alteration I have proposed which is approximate will make the trouser look better but when the wearer strides out the trouser will not be as comfortable. Compromise! This problem as I said previously need to be sorted out at the fitting stage and at this risk of becoming public enemy #1 aside from easing the fork, and the other idea of clearing the seat out which will only serve to smudge the problem a little, no other solution will work at this stage other than loosening the buttocks a little to stand less on the trousers. 

Perhaps if there is a Savile Row cutter who peruses this discussion they could give their explanation of straightening and crookening, otherwise the reference material I have suggested is the best way to experiment. I would recommend to any budding coat makers that they try straightening a coat and have a look at the vast difference 1/4 inch will do it. Once of the big things if you go through with it is to strongly damp and dry shrink the back arm scye and then stay it with some holland linen tape.

I hope this adds to this discussion positively and that my other post does not show up, but hope this one does as I am a very slow typist.

Regards

Brendon

Preston and Maurice 


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#21 Bespoke in Auckland

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Posted 07 May 2015 - 08:05 AM

Proviso added sorry.... Crooked coat is ok if a massive amount of working up is done of the coat and that does not always seem to be a possibility with some of the modern cloth and is certainly probably only done with the oldest tailoring houses if at all nowadays.

Brendon



#22 jukes

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Posted 07 May 2015 - 06:03 PM

Proviso added sorry.... Crooked coat is ok if a massive amount of working up is done of the coat and that does not always seem to be a possibility with some of the modern cloth and is certainly probably only done with the oldest tailoring houses if at all nowadays.

Brendon

A crooked cut is still common today, it does not need the amount of ironwork as in folk lore, and in my opinion gives a better fit, especially when buttoned. Rory Duffy  uses a crooked cut, as do many others.

Those that tend to criticise a crooked cut have either never tried it or don't know how.



#23 Bespoke in Auckland

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Posted 07 May 2015 - 09:11 PM

Hi Jukes

Slightly misunderstood and that is my fault, my add on was done in a rush. What I am referring to as you say not "common" is the working up of the cloth. Much harder with some of these fine cloths. Yes the crooked cut is still common and I am well aware of that. It is the straight cut that is less common and at its extreme, is well out of fashion.

Yes I 've tried a crooked cut. So here is what I don't like about it and why I prefer a straighter cut and please excuse if you know all this already ( senior pro on your profile post) but no doubt others may be reading this as well.....

-A crooked cut tends to fall away to the hip and takes the emphasis away from the chest. A crooked cut must have more length in the break and therefore has the need to shrink that away. I always crooken the coat for a set of tails or a chesty male and work that away and use a gorge dart. Much as a straight coat has more cloth behind the scye and is shrunk away. For mine, a mans shape is to have a narrower hip and a little more chest, and a straightening the forepart throws the cloth toward the chest. A woman's shape is naturally of a smaller shoulder and a wider hip and a woman's coat is always more crooked to accomodate both this and the bust.

The button on a crooked coat always has more strain on it as the coat tries to fall away ie the crookening of a coat.

I had a brief look at the Rory Duffy he looks a nice fellow and is indeed a cutter tailor and must be nice to know he has good support in you? Are you also a cutter or a tailor? In my post I did ask if one could elaborate on the points. ie you believe it fits well when buttoned and perhaps you could elaborate on why? I would never assume that those who criticise the straight cut have either never tried it or don't know how,  so have you tried a straight cut?   Straightening and Crookening is a very important and technical area for those learning, which is most. I think aside from my ambiguous add on I have stated my understanding of it fairly clearly and look forward discussions on the subject. 

I watched the Duffy video and learnt something simple and new to try which may be of help so thank you for alerting me to him.

Regards

Brendon

Preston & Maurice 



#24 jukes

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Posted 07 May 2015 - 10:53 PM

?


Edited by jukes, 07 May 2015 - 10:54 PM.


#25 jukes

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Posted 07 May 2015 - 10:53 PM

http://www.cutterand...8031&hl=crooked

 

Click the link. Rory does a good job of explaining both concepts in the last post.

I used to be both tailor and cutter, not anymore.



#26 jukes

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Posted 08 May 2015 - 04:53 AM

Simple way to see what happens re Crookening and straightening the shoulder is to get a forepart pattern, place your finger on the centre waistline, then move the front shoulder 1/2" forward for straightening and 1/2" back for crookening. Watch what happens to the front of the coat and the front of scye.

Yes, you have to make other adjustments with the iron to realign the garment, but you should be able to see the effect in both the chest area and the hang of the fronts. 



#27 Schneidergott

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Posted 10 May 2015 - 06:43 AM

What is a neck point discussion doing in a trouser thread?


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"Nur der ist Meister seiner Kunst, der immer sucht, das Gute zu verbessern und niemals glaubt, das Beste schon zu haben."
"Only he is a master of his art who always seeks to improve the good and never believes to have the best already"

http://www.dressedwell.net/ It's snarky, but fun.


#28 SPOOKIETOO

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Posted 10 May 2015 - 02:33 PM

Schneidergott - every now and then, we here at the bottom rung of the ladder get a little lost in the terminology. We're not really discussing the actual make up of a coat, just learning a few terms on occasion.

So long as things don't go into detailed discussions of structure, may we have these little nuggets on occasion, please?

I'm sure everyone will get back on track with trouser talk. Right everyone?
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#29 Schneidergott

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Posted 10 May 2015 - 06:19 PM

The neck point is a subject not even professionals can agree on and we've had pointless discussions before, in the sense that we agreed to disagree.

So having a similar one in a trouser thread makes even less sense.

 

With trousers the main issues will be mostly at the back, since it depends on what seat angle is chosen. The less angle you have, the less stride there is, and vice versa.

Abb. 112 and 113 show trousers that lack comfort (small seat angle, shortness in the back). Note the diagonal pulls from back to front. Abb. 113 shows a pair of trousers with a bigger seat angle and less diagonal pulls, Abb. 114 and 115 show the comfortable version in movement.

 

Dokument0-044.jpg  Dokument0-045.jpg

 

Dokument0-046.jpg

 

The seat angle and ease decision needs to be taken at drafting stage and according to the customer's figure and wishes.

 

Pleated trousers need to have more ease and fullness in the fronts, usually all the way through, and not just at the very top (probably used the pleats to avoid a round side seam).

 

For tight fitting trousers, and especially when there's a big difference between waist and hip measure, slanted side pockets (jetted or as seen in the pictures) are best avoided, since there's a great chance that they will gape open.


  • Schneiderfrei likes this

"Nur der ist Meister seiner Kunst, der immer sucht, das Gute zu verbessern und niemals glaubt, das Beste schon zu haben."
"Only he is a master of his art who always seeks to improve the good and never believes to have the best already"

http://www.dressedwell.net/ It's snarky, but fun.


#30 posaune

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Posted 11 May 2015 - 06:30 AM

Schneidergott,
those pics are nice. Maybe, This - would be fine - you have a pic of a trouser with a big seat angle and a long seat seam
like the others.
lg
posaune

#31 Schneidergott

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Posted 11 May 2015 - 07:08 AM

Schneidergott,
those pics are nice. Maybe, This - would be fine - you have a pic of a trouser with a big seat angle and a long seat seam
like the others.
lg
posaune

 

Like these?

 

WAuml10010.jpg

 

WAuml10012.jpg

 

WAuml10013.jpg

 

WAuml10014.jpg

 

In all cases they change the seat angle (take in at side seam and let out at center back).


"Nur der ist Meister seiner Kunst, der immer sucht, das Gute zu verbessern und niemals glaubt, das Beste schon zu haben."
"Only he is a master of his art who always seeks to improve the good and never believes to have the best already"

http://www.dressedwell.net/ It's snarky, but fun.


#32 Schneiderfrei

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Posted 11 May 2015 - 08:38 AM

Yes! exactly like these, Thank you so much :)


Shell made out of gold
Found on a beach picked up and you held so close





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