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Shirts, Well fitted

shirts fit alter

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#1 HautenDandy

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Posted 25 May 2015 - 09:05 AM

Was wondering if someone could point me to some pictures of well fitting shirts.

 

I can see a few problems on my shirt, mainly shoulders slouching forward,  but before I went to altering what I think is ok any further, I wanted to see what a finished shirt should look like on a body, and where everything lays acceptably.



#2 dpcoffin

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Posted 27 May 2015 - 02:34 AM

I went looking for some useful pix and found it very difficult, compared to finding pix of shirts NOT fitting (shockingly common, even amongst fashion pix supposedly showing off a nice looking shirt...AND very instructive)...or of people looking good in shirts whether they fit or not, which obviously is a matter of taste or dispute. There's plenty of those!

 

For developing your own standards with help from a very discerning eye, you could hardly do better than to study this post. And, I'd say, to also keep doing your own on-going and never really ending survey of what looks good—AND bad—to your developing eye. Collecting pix will increase the usefulness of your search, as you'll actually be able to see your own standards developing over time.

 

I snapped a bunch of screen shots at Pinterest, but quickly found I had so many (almost all negative) that it would be quite time-consuming to put them all together with even the most minimal commentary, but I did find it fascinating to see how obviously uncritical of fit either most image posters are, or most fashion stylists are, or both. Suggesting that hardly anybody seems to really know what fit looks like in a shirt, or that the standard for shirt fit is quite low, not really surprising since almost nobody wears custom-fitted shirts, but almost everybody wears some sort of shirt, and hardly anybody, not even models, has a perfectly "normal" shape. Also of course, whatever style is current is a highly moving target, except that no shirt EVER seems to be tight enough for slim young guys, in any era!

 

And finally, in that same vein, the main thing the average image-posting person seems to be imaging that male shirt fit is all about is not actually a fitting garment, but a "fit" body inside it, being shown off, often by how much it's straining and distorting the helpless garment because it's such an extreme and shapely form.

 

The big question I came away with was: What's the difference between bad fit and simply too tight in an era when too tight IS the current fashion? My own opinionated answers were simply: 1) No matter how tight, the yoke, shoulders and upper body, at least in front, should be as perfectly smooth as possible, with no drag or sag lines going in any direction around the neck, or between the shoulder ends and the neckline and center front. VERY rare! 2), and even more rare, there should be no diagonal drag lines across the side seams; almost every slim male body seems to suffer from this, esp. from lines going from up in back to down towards the front. And finally, and rarest of all, 3) the cuffs, when buttoned, should be right at the wrists, not falling over the heels of the hands or exposing wrist bones, while allowing for some drape in the sleeve. 

 

I'll post my images sooner or later, because I think your question's an excellent one, and that here's a perfect place for a gallery of opinions on this topic, and presumably a few fitting "facts", too. but right now's a VERY busy time, sorry!


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#3 Henry Hall

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Posted 27 May 2015 - 05:16 AM

The shirts on Mary Frittolini's website (recently posted by Tailleuse) are great examples of well-fitting shirts, as would be expected.


Each phenomenon which is taken up should be treated with as much thoroughness as possible at that standpoint... One thing at a time and that done well!

 

- Otto Jespersen (How to Teach a Foreign Language).


#4 dpcoffin

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Posted 27 May 2015 - 05:26 AM

I thought I could send you a Pinterest search for Hathaway shirt ads as a quick route to seeing some nice smooth upper-front shirts...but no, even there the shoulder slope is often missed:

V_C2015-05-26_12-12-02_PM.png?dl=1

 

But here's one site where you can see a bunch of smooth shirt fronts all in one place. And get a poke in the eye with a sharp stick at the same time! As the headline says, " The head hair was feathered. The chest hair was thick and matted. And the shirts were wrinkle-free." Skip examples 1 and 9.

 

http://www.buzzfeed....70s#.dddKpgYj41


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#5 dpcoffin

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Posted 27 May 2015 - 05:32 AM

The shirts on Mary Frittolini's website (recently posted by Tailleuse) are great examples of well-fitting shirts, as would be expected.

Where exactly? I looked in vain for any finished shirt on a body pix...?



#6 Henry Hall

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Posted 27 May 2015 - 06:20 AM

These:

 

image.jpg

 

image.jpg

 

image.jpg

 

image.jpg

 

She had a different blog before (or it was the one called 'The Real Bespoke Shirt' I was thinking of).


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Each phenomenon which is taken up should be treated with as much thoroughness as possible at that standpoint... One thing at a time and that done well!

 

- Otto Jespersen (How to Teach a Foreign Language).


#7 Schneiderfrei

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Posted 27 May 2015 - 09:59 AM

I totally agree with you DPC there are far more examples of badly fitted clothes on line in general. 

 

HD there are examples back through the Beginners Forum that end up showing well fitted shirts, usually at the end of a thread :)

 

Gramountoto has posted several I think and SealKing at least.


Edited by Schneiderfrei, 27 May 2015 - 10:03 AM.

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#8 dpcoffin

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Posted 27 May 2015 - 10:46 AM

I feel SO grateful that I've never really had to make shirts for other people, besides a few loved ones. So I've been able to totally develop my own no doubt quirky, and definitely personal, sense of what fit means, for me alone. And I was surprised to find myself leaning towards more closely fitted shirts than I was ever comfortable wearing in RTW. Perhaps that's natural once you start fiddling with the fit. But the point I think is that as a DIY type, your vision is going to be a personal thing even on a topic like fit. YOU get to decide what's fit and what's style and what's comfortable, and if it's a little off what's common, all the more reason for making them yourself! And maybe the fit should be different depending on the kind of shirt, and the fabric, the planned use, lots of things... Would you actually want ALL your shirts to fit the same?

 

I guess the main thing I find is that as a maker for yourself, you're putting a whole lot more thought into every aspect of the thing you're making than most people would ever dream of giving it, so your opinions and perceptions are going to take you into lots of areas where there are no standards, only choices you get to make...or into areas where you'll have opinions on things that others don't even consider, and these are bound to differ from those of the few others with opinions on the same issues (I'd be VERY busy "fixing" that last Mary Frittolini example, for example!)...and vive la difference!

 

The few times I've had shirts made for me (back before, when it was research as much as anything else...), there was always some little battle of wills going on between me and the fitter, as his opinions bounced against mine. And there was ALWAYS a "house" style and fit clearly visible in the results, no matter how many points I was specific about... I guess that's part of what keeps the all-custom all-the-time folks continuing to try out different makers.


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#9 Henry Hall

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Posted 27 May 2015 - 11:32 AM

I'm not entirely certain if all the Frittolini pictures I posted are of completely finished garments.

 

I don't even make shirts, I've tried a few and I make my pyjamas (no critical audience for those, except the girlfriend who thinks they're old-fashioned and daft). I've bought slim-fit shirts in the past, but they never really work in the chest and shoulders and they bind at the elbows. The commercial RTW slim-fit shirt (and the MTM versions for all I know) are not even as good as regular tunic shirts that have been taken in.


Edited by Henry Hall, 27 May 2015 - 11:34 AM.

Each phenomenon which is taken up should be treated with as much thoroughness as possible at that standpoint... One thing at a time and that done well!

 

- Otto Jespersen (How to Teach a Foreign Language).


#10 Schneiderfrei

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Posted 27 May 2015 - 12:24 PM

I have just been told that my Mansie trousers made up as plain tops make me look like Tweedle Dee. Better than Tweedle Dum of course but I thought that was the whole point :)


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#11 dpcoffin

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Posted 27 May 2015 - 12:44 PM

I didn't intend to critique anything about those shirts, more to say simply that I'd tend to want to get MY hands on the controls of ANY shirt, to exercise MY opinions on them...if they were within my reach:) And that I'd only be serving myself, if I were to, not any imaginary or even proposed external standard.

 

Somebody once visited me at work, years ago, right after my first book on shirts was out, dropping in with the astounding proposal that he wanted to set up some kind of international competition to decide on the "World's Best Shirt"...with ME as the judge!! My jaw still drops at so many parts of that notion. First, why ME?!?!, a magazine writer of all things, —but mostly, how could there even BE such a thing as a BEST shirt? And how could anybody who liked shirts even want to try to categorize them in such a way...as opposed to simply admiring and appreciating whatever was well done or distinctive or surprising about any of them...and to want to see ever-more interesting specimens whenever possible? Of which there are PLENTY, and how wonderful!

 

Of course, he was in the shirt-making business, and wanted to generate some buzz with his "contest", nothing more, but still, I guess he was feeling some tendency people have for imagining there are absolutes and clear hierarchies of quality or whatever. Sure, we all have our own personal standards, and can get much pleasure and satisfaction from them, but there's always the temptation to beat other people up with them, which pretty much spoils everything as far as I can tell.



#12 dpcoffin

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Posted 27 May 2015 - 01:04 PM

FWIW, here's MY current personal favorite image of a shirt fitting well:

 

V_C2015-05-26_05-19-06_PM.png?dl=1


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#13 Schneiderfrei

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Posted 27 May 2015 - 04:17 PM

I would have like very much to see that hand made shirt by Martin Stall that is on his website, modeled on the person for whom it was made.


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#14 tailleuse

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Posted 28 May 2015 - 03:29 AM

I would have like very much to see that hand made shirt by Martin Stall that is on his website, modeled on the person for whom it was made.

 

Is this the shirt you meant? It's very nice.  I guess privacy and discretion are what clients pay for. :-)


Edited by tailleuse, 28 May 2015 - 03:30 AM.

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#15 tailleuse

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Posted 28 May 2015 - 03:31 AM

FWIW, here's MY current personal favorite image of a shirt fitting well:

 

V_C2015-05-26_05-19-06_PM.png?dl=1

 

Are the buttonholes slightly too big, or is that the style? Is this a real image.  Where is the horizontal buttonhole at the throat? Or is it hidden?


Edited by tailleuse, 28 May 2015 - 03:33 AM.

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#16 dpcoffin

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Posted 28 May 2015 - 09:43 AM

It's the cover from a 1956 issue of a French women's magazine called Modes & Travaux, found on Pinterest probably, or somebody's blog. Looks to me like a somewhat doctored photo, to judge mainly by the hands, which look nothing like a painting...and that's all I know about it. The buttons seem all of a piece with the rest of the garment, which is wonderfully detailed, I think, but no doubt I'd have skipped the dark buttonholes, and probably chosen smaller buttons...but who knows? Maybe in 1956 all this looked perfect. I still love much of it, esp. the cuffs and pockets, the buttoned collar (maybe there's a little loop under the left-side collar?)...and the fit of the sleeves. And pleats or gathers from the yoke still seem to me the best way to deal with dart shaping on a women's shirt.


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#17 Schneiderfrei

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Posted 28 May 2015 - 09:57 AM

Yes indeed Tailleuse that is the one, and I expect you are totally correct about the privacy. But still it looks beautiful.

 

I agree DPC that the lady's shirt is wonderful.  The first thing my eye settled on was the pockets, very imaginative. Also that there is no dart from the side seam to accommodate the bust - is that a dart below the bust at the front or just a fabric fold?


Edited by Schneiderfrei, 28 May 2015 - 10:03 AM.

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#18 dpcoffin

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Posted 28 May 2015 - 10:32 AM

is that a dart below the bust at the front or just a fabric fold?

 

 

Good question; I suspect yes, a dart. But it could just be that the French REALLY know how to tuck a shirt in!


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