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Trouser Fitting - Too Crooked Undersides - Insufficient Ironwork

Fitting; trousers

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#1 Schneiderfrei

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Posted 27 May 2015 - 01:19 AM

Hi all,

 

I was very interested in the images that Schneidergott posted in the Bespeakers Forum recently:

 

"Trousers creasing below the seat."

 

I have taken the time to translate the first page and post it here in the Beginners Forum.  

 

Peterle has very kindly read over my effort and he has made a most excellent contribution to what you will see. Without his help I fear it might not have been much good.

 

It may, for some, read a little bit awkwardly at first but I prefer to always keep a translation as close to the sense of the original language. 

 

I think it is a great contribution to understanding fitting and my intention is to do the same with the rest of the pages.

 

 

 

 

 

Too crooked undersides - insufficient iron work

 

The Origin of the Error

 

This Error Photo shows waistband trousers with heavy diagonal folds at the undersides below the butt area, the hems ugly swinging away from the shoes backwards.

 

Abb%201%20Seite%2027_zps0swubxuo.jpg

 

Image 1: These trousers show excessively large diagonals along the sideseam and to the undersides in the gluteal region; also the pants are ugly at the bottom from the shoe.

 

This error isn’t seen seldomly, but would be avoidable with some care.  It is not possible - even in trousers with wide bottom width - to sew the parts together without any ironwork (formbügeln) ; such carelessness will always takes its toll at the fit. In particular, as in this case, of a figure with protruding calfs.

 

The following differentiation arises in waistband trousers.

 

a) the customer prefers a rather or completely wrinkle free fit ("Fall" means something like drape) while standing.  This can be achieved without any special effort by the straighter seat angle.  He must not concern that trousers of this kind will feel tight onto the thighs and knees while walking or climbing stairs and natural wrinkles will form at the crotch and waistband area when sitting.

b) the customer (particularly corpulent men) prefers comfortable trousers that have enough room for movement even in the sitting position. Such pants should have a more crooked seat angle and the undersides have to be lengthened upwards. This kind of trousers will show more or less intensive folds in the butt area, which can not be considered an error but are natural.

In most cases, therefore, one strikes the golden mean.


The change:

The trousers first have to be taken apart at the inside seam, the side seam and at the seatseam.  The seatseam then has to be extended at the waistseam/center back about 2-3 cm, there should be enough inlay available. To maintain the same waist width, this amount must be gradually removed at the side-seam.

The waistseam height of the undersides is shortened about 1 cm at the seatseam.

 

Abb%202%20u%203%20Seite%2027_zpsptfaxray

 

Image 2: At the undersides the seat seam was extended at the top about 2 – 3 cm, the same amount is removed at the sideseam; the band height is shortened about 1 cm at the back, the crotchpoint is extended about 1 cm.

 

Image 3:The ironwork to the trousers— especially for lesser leg width — takes place in a diagonal direction; thus giving the cloth a lighter and more durable result.

 

 

The crotch point is extended by 1 cm smoothing in to the inseam gradually in these trousers.

With Figure 3 we show a schematic of iron shaping of the trousers. According to experience with bias iron work it is not recommended  to stretch the fabric in warp or weft direction, because here the material only gives insufficiently: Top and undersides should be formed severely in the marked bias direction  to achieve the necessary calf shape for the undersides.

When there is enough inlay, the seams can be let out to 1-1.5 cm at calf height running up and down in a curved shape. When ironing the seams and in finish ironing the trousers this fullness for the calf must always lie towards the side seam at the necessary height. Experienced professional colleagues baste a small vertical fold here that will be opened and ironed smooth after ironing out the pants, so that this fullness for the lateral calf shape lies exactly in the correct place.

Figure 4 illustrates such an iron-formed trousers.  The amount of iron work is determined by the existing body shape and material type.

 

Abb.%204%20Seite%2027_zpsevimfjeu.jpg

 

Image 4: The iron-worked topsides and undersides were brought together and reattached at the sideseam and crotchseam.

 

 

Now first the sideseam and then the inseam gets sewn. For control the trouser leg with basted side- and inseam should be put on the table to lie flat, in a form that the side seam forms the fold. Thus it can be judged whether the seams are put together in the right way or whether small diagonal pulls are formed at the inseam, especially upwards, suggesting an incorrect attaching of the seams.

By these alterations of the undersides to the seat seam, the crotch seam and to the band height, the diagonal folds in the gluteal region were eliminated. The newly applied curved side seam creates plenty of room at the calf bulge.

In the direction indicated by the arrow in Figure 4, the pants obtained the correct shape and sufficient length.

 

 

 

Here is the original page:

 

WAuml10010.jpg


Edited by Schneiderfrei, 27 May 2015 - 01:30 AM.

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#2 Henry Hall

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Posted 27 May 2015 - 05:03 AM

Great info, thanks for the effort.

 

Consider using 'seat' rather than 'butt'. Gesaßnaht is literally seat-seam. Also I was initially confused by "The seatseam then has to be extended at the waistseam/center back about 2-3 cm..." It indicated to me that it goes upwards, when of course it means that the seat angle is changed by letting it out. I don't think transliteration rather than translation helps with clarity.


Edited by Henry Hall, 27 May 2015 - 07:32 AM.

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#3 Schneiderfrei

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Posted 27 May 2015 - 08:38 AM

Thank you Henry,

 

In the document I haven't found an example of buttseam :), though butt has been used a couple of times, I liked Gluteal region enough to include - its probably, really, too anatomical so "buttocks" might have been better.  I will let those slide.

 

Its a good point about the sentence "The seat seam then . ....  " Oben can mean upward or top.  I have left it so because, like so many old books, it is written with a less than modern approach to precision.  Now we have discussed it it shouldn't be a problem.

 

I have made it a bit more precise in the commentary of Image 2:


Edited by Schneiderfrei, 27 May 2015 - 08:41 AM.

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#4 tombennett

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Posted 13 June 2015 - 10:53 PM

Hi Schneiderfrei, I don't suppose there is a picture of the final pair of trousers being worn?

 

tom.



#5 Schneiderfrei

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Posted 14 June 2015 - 10:17 AM

Hi Tombennett,

 

I am very sorry these pages are all I have from Schneidergott's post in the Bespeakers Forum.

 

http://www.cutterand...pic=4085&page=2

 

I would love to see more of those pages, they clearly are every second page, I wonder what was in between.  

 

Also I would like to see pages dealing with errors of the topsides - very much. Although Schneidergott clearly says that most errors will be in the undersides and the result of incorrect seat angle, (same page as that above but the previous post).

 

I have made a start on the next page in the series; that deals with trousers that are too crooked and with excessively wide leg measurements.  

 

I confess that my laptop battery has required replacing and that has knocked my efforts back a bit, I did some last night tho.


Edited by Schneiderfrei, 14 June 2015 - 10:18 AM.

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#6 tombennett

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Posted 14 June 2015 - 06:23 PM

Thanks Schneiderfrei, I've read most of these and I really appreciate people like yourself have to translate these articles for non-German speaking people, for which I am eternally grateful.  I think I am finally realising that the seat angle is where the action is, no doubt to everyone's relief.  :twitch:

 

tom.


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#7 posaune

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Posted 14 June 2015 - 08:14 PM

Hi Tom, the seat angle:
I have drawn a pic how I decide what to expect and cut for:
Average, flat, or developed seat.
You see (or you are supposed to) in the pict the contour of a body with shoulders and rear. They have the same hip circs.
In the first the plomb line touches two: the shoulder blades and the highest peak.
The distance from waist indent to this line is mirrowed. And the back pattern is drafted to that mirrowed point.
in the second we have a flat seat the plumb line does not touches the shoulder blades.
The distance form plumb line to waist indentation is less - so the mirrowed point has a smaller distant
and the crotch seam is draftet more steep.
In the third pic the seat is well developed and the plumb line is right from shoulder.
The distance from plumb line is wider and the back crotch seam more flat.
When you look at the thigh you see a small square. With sverage it touches the inseam, with flat it is too big
and in developed it is too small. That represents the crotch diamter lack with developed and too big with flat.

In the second pic I have shoved the different draft one over the other. You see the different angles and length
(I have not in the different crotch diameters).
This is my way to see it. It is simplified and I'm sure there are others and better ways.
lg
posaune

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#8 tombennett

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Posted 15 June 2015 - 07:59 AM

Hello posaune,

 

Thank you ever so much for such a simple diagram for something I have found so difficult to conceptualise, and I see how the mirroring works.  If I understand: had you drawn in the crotch diameter it would be shorter for the flat and, longer for the pronounced?  So as you steepen the seat seam, it follows that the crotch length/diameter gets shorter/smaller? If that makes sense!  I can also see why and how the dart changes to, as Poulin says to suppress the trouser waist.  Sorry if it has taken a while for this to sink in

 

And is this what Hutch48 keeps referring to as changing the angle that the legs leave the torso, I think that was his terminology - am I right here Hutch?

 

tom.


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#9 hutch48

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Posted 15 June 2015 - 09:11 PM

Tom,

 

posaune's diagram does address the exit angle I mentioned but it does more, it shows the type of pattern change required to execute the exit angle that I mentioned. As your photos would appear to fit the middle of the 3 side sections, it is probably a good guide to how you should modify the pattern you are using to fit your figure type. I would make sure that when you cut out the new fabric that you leave enough to try out a number of modifications so you can tweak the fit closer to your figure type.


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#10 tombennett

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Posted 16 June 2015 - 06:02 AM

Hi Hutch, yes I think I have left myself enough inlay to fit this pair, it was the execution of the modification that was baffling me.  I've currently cut for Ostinelli's prominent calf alteration, but, if I can't crack the ironwork I won't be fitting anything; I can safely say it isn't going to well.  I know the principle having read a lot of literature on it and, seen a lot of photographs but it's no replacement for actually watching it being done from the start to a finished pair of trousers. 



#11 tombennett

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Posted 16 June 2015 - 09:40 AM

I've hi-jacked this post so I am going back to mine, suffice to say I have completed the ironwork, after a fashion.  I'll post some images tomorrow.  The seam is straight, with a slight bow.


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#12 Schneiderfrei

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Posted 03 July 2015 - 03:51 AM

I have asked Schneidergott where these pages came from.

 

He has said they came from an old Rundschau book called "Wir Ändern".

 

He says there is an updated version on the Mueller website called: Passformfehler beheben

 

http://muellersohn.c...mfehler-beheben

 

:)


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