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#37 Sator

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Posted 01 November 2010 - 10:33 PM

More overcoat canvas patterns, but this time from Zuschnitt XVI. Note that the cut at the neck to be gusseted open, that was ubiquitous in the XIII edition has been replaced with a different cut that gives you more chest from above.

A moderately waisted overcoat:

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A box coat with an easy fit:

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A corpulent cut:

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A Raglan overcoat:

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#38 Sator

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Posted 01 November 2010 - 10:36 PM

Are you certain the diagonal stripes are really the grain line ? Because those overcoats' canvases are pretty wide if you need to cut them in such a bias... The canvas I buy is not that wide, I can't cut those patterns on the true bias.


Good point. I only noticed them at the end while posting in great hast and quickly added a comment before rushing off to work. It seemed odd, and I didn't have time to read the text. I still don't have time. Maybe one of these days I will read it carefully. I didn't think they actually said anything to that effect. You can however get 150 cm wide canvas.

#39 Schneidergott

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Posted 02 November 2010 - 12:16 AM

If you take a look at the instruction pictures you can see that there are darker stripes in the canvas running vertically. This is present in almost all instruction manuals.
Also, if you cut the canvas on the bias following the direction of the lines you will have it straight in the lapel fold, making it difficult to shrink it for a fuller chest!

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#40 Sator

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Posted 02 November 2010 - 08:37 AM

Also, if you cut the canvas on the bias following the direction of the lines you will have it straight in the lapel fold, making it difficult to shrink it for a fuller chest!


This is always a disadvantage of cutting canvas on the bias, and even Whife (who seems to be the most vocal of writers expounding the virtues of a bias cut canvas) does acknowledge that you end with the canvas on the straight relative to the lapel crease line.

#41 Sator

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Posted 02 November 2010 - 08:58 AM

Full original Zuschnitt XIII text:

Posted ImagePosted Image

Posted ImagePosted Image

No mention is made of cutting the canvas on the bias vs straight.

#42 Martin Stall

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Posted 03 November 2010 - 06:36 PM

I'm shocked by how complicated Bunka made their canvass. Looks more like something you'd find in old books. Not for beginners.

I don't like the armscye wedges they use either. It stiffens the canvass in the wrong place. It might be easy to create drape, but there are better ways to do it.
Sure, I believe your work rocks, but... have you considered, how are you going to sell that stuff?

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#43 Sator

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Posted 03 November 2010 - 07:42 PM

Yes, the Bunka method involves incredibly heavy working up. It's all about cleanness and "Schluss" with little concession to softness or comfort.

Posted Image

And you thought the Germans liked it clean? :Big Grin:

Note the similarity of the Bunka canvas to this approach from Croonborg's Red Book (1917):

Posted Image

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The large armscye wedge and the position of the lower chest dart bear strong resemblance to the Bunka canvas. The way they get you to run machine stitches around the base of scye will produce a similar "Schluss" around this area to the armscye dart in Croonborg's above canvas. The armscye wedge that is gusseted open by the insert is a bit larger than on the Bunka one because Croonborg's coat is cut crooked, and the oversized wedge helps to advance the major lateral balance back to the proportionate position.

That said, I do rather like this approach. I think that all things are cyclical, and if the rather well structured Zegna for Tom Ford coat recently dissected by Jefferyd is anything to go by structure seems to be back in at the high end again.

#44 Martin Stall

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Posted 03 November 2010 - 07:50 PM

There's such an easy way to give shape to the shoulder. Two cuts, 5 cm each. I should write a post about it. Somebody make me write a post about this. Please?
Sure, I believe your work rocks, but... have you considered, how are you going to sell that stuff?

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#45 Sator

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Posted 03 November 2010 - 08:11 PM

You mean like this from Dellafera? Two cuts, 5 cm length each. The armscye cut could be a tad higher. Open cuts at the shoulder and armscye. Hold open the shoulder cut at the shoulder with a gusset cut on the bias. Stretch the body canvas to open up the cut at the armscye.

Posted Image

Pad stitch chest to body canvas but leave the area around the cut at armscye unpadded:

Posted Image

Manipulate with iron - modestly stretch top front of armscye to open up the cuts there. Once the armscye cuts are opened up finish pad stitching this area.

Posted Image

Both photos come from Jefferyd's blog.

This is very much down the straight and narrow:

1. Avoids excess cuts on modern canvas weaves
2. Not too heavily worked or excessively soft and flabby
3. Logical
4. Not overly time consuming
5. Reduces number of layers of canvas at front of scye (gussets mean more layers)

#46 Martin Stall

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Posted 03 November 2010 - 08:21 PM

Nope. Even simpler. Another bonus: no cuts in shoulder or scye where it weakens and stiffens (sic!), and could also show through.
Sure, I believe your work rocks, but... have you considered, how are you going to sell that stuff?

http: under construction...

#47 Sator

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Posted 03 November 2010 - 09:08 PM

OK...you've got me thinking now... Nothing at the scye or shoulder...all cuts well hidden to avoid showing through the right side.

You can't be thinking of this one:

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There is a risk of the chest dart from above showing through. It is nonetheless a very viable and modern cut minus the second waist dart coming from the front.

Bunka also give you this as an alternative canvas pattern:

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They even show you how to sew the thing, by folding the canvas in half:

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However, this too involves a cut at the shoulder, even if it's not held open.

So, how's this for a guess?

Posted Image

There are two cuts - one at the neck, which is gusseted open but kept hidden under the collar. Then I thought maybe a second one under the armscye of the body canvas. This is kept hidden under the the arm and less visible. It will give you a bit of Schluss at the armscye, plus a bit of chest.

#48 Martin Stall

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Posted 03 November 2010 - 09:12 PM

Nope. Not bad though. The chest dart by the way should hide under the lapel. Ok, I'll make a post about it. Thanks :)
Sure, I believe your work rocks, but... have you considered, how are you going to sell that stuff?

http: under construction...

#49 Sator

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Posted 03 November 2010 - 10:39 PM

Aha! :Idea: OK great idea - hide one dart under the armscye and the other one under the lapel! :Star:

Posted Image

The lapel dart will give you chest, and it will give you the "Schluss" at the armscye.

The neck cut gusseted open lengthens the front balance. The lapel dart will shorten it. The two balance each other out. On the cloth you stretch the neck a bit, and balance this out by shrinking along the lapel line or drawing the bridle in. Do nothing more at the armscye that will disrupt balance ie stretch a little towards the shoulder point, shrink a little at the base of armscye so that their effect on balance cancel each other out.

1. Simple - less is more
2. Balance neutral
3. All cuts well hidden - under the collar and lapel (more of an issue on light cloths - ie most modern ones)
4. A bit of chest, a bit of armscye "Schluss", and room for the collar bone

By way of contrast my version with the dart just below the armscye is problematic in its effect on balance. The neck cut lengthens the front balance and so does the armscye dart. Both cuts recede the major lateral balance, rather than cancelling each other out to produce a balance neutral effect.

#50 Sator

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Posted 03 November 2010 - 10:47 PM

Actually, to think about it, this is like a single breasted version of this DB reefer canvas pattern (posted earlier in this thread) from ASZ:

Posted Image

#51 Sator

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Posted 03 November 2010 - 11:12 PM

I tried to update the above 1950s ASZ DB canvas pattern:

Posted Image

The effect is similar, but the cut at the lapel is shorter and weakens the canvas less. It also gives you a nice lapel roll.

#52 Martin Stall

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Posted 04 November 2010 - 12:24 AM

Too complicated. Wait for it :)
Sure, I believe your work rocks, but... have you considered, how are you going to sell that stuff?

http: under construction...

#53 Sator

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Posted 14 November 2010 - 11:02 PM

We recently saw some examples of a curve and two part shoulder cuts being gusseted open from Bunka, 2010 and The Red Book of Tailoring, 1917. Here was the two part shoulder cut:

Here is another variation of the same thing - the two part dart:

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There can be no doubt that this is perfectly deliberate:

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Of the two, the curved variant results in the stronger effect on shaping the shoulder.


Here is the same thing on the shoulder of a Kiton Napoli ready made coat:

Posted Image

#54 the tailor

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Posted 21 December 2010 - 07:52 PM

To be honest a lot of these old canvas cutting and making systems don't work.

Most of the modern type canvasses are just not firm enough to stand the amount of working up to retain and hold the shape created by the large vee's and wedges.

The other aspect is that todays tailored clothes, style wise, and fitting wise, have vastly changed.

Most 'modern' tailored clothes do not require the amount of shape and close fitted qualities created by these canvasses.
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