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Help Fitting Shirt for Athletic Build


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#1 bot_bot

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Posted 29 April 2016 - 12:28 PM

PROBLEM: 

I'm having trouble resolving some diagonal draglines around the chest area for a person with a muscular build.  You can see the problem in Figures 2 & 3 (below).  Any idea how I can fix this?  Any help would be greatly appreciated! :)

 

BACKGROUND:

I actually just made another shirt for the same person, and the shirt fits reasonably well.  You'll notice, in FIGURE 1, there are no draglines.  The fit is a bit looser than the muslins in Figures 2 & 3.  The armholes in Fig 1 start 1/2" below the chest line, and there's a bit more ease in the biceps.

 

The problem started with my attempts at making the shirt more fitted (for the same athletically built person) (see Fig 2).  To make the shirt more fitted, I did the following:

  1. Decreased the amount of CHEST ease;
  2. Decreased the amount of BICEP ease in the sleeves; and
  3. Raised the ARMHOLES so that they started at either chest level or a bit above.

After making the above changes, the draglines appeared.  At first, I thought the problem was due to the increased tightness in the CHEST area.  However, even after adding more ease back into the chest, the draglines became worse (see Fig 3).

 

SIDE NOTE: 

On a side note, you'll notice that in both Figures 2 & 3, the right and left sides (subject's side) are different.  For the right side, the armhole starts at chest level.  And, for the left side, the armhole starts 1/2" above chest level.  I made the sides different to see their effects on fit.  Basically, killing two birds with one stone.

 

Thanks so much for any thoughts!

 

 

26676418156_725e8032f8_c.jpg

 

 

26430419340_8e15f3c5cd_c.jpg

 

 

26610134662_a0a419c3bd_c.jpg

 

 

 

PS-You can disregard the draglines on the sleeves.  I will work on increasing the sleeve head height to resolve the issue.

 

Also, I was looking at one of the Rundschau/Müller & Sohn books ("Passformfeher") (see Fig 4).  They have a picture of a fitting problem that looks similar to mine.  However, the title looks to be for sloped shoulders.  Any idea on whether their strategy might be applicable to my situation?  

 

Thanks again!

 

 

26676418106_73b1245502_c.jpg



#2 dpcoffin

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Posted 29 April 2016 - 02:06 PM

I don't have a fix, sorry to say, but a few things did come to mind:

 

First, from Mike Maldonado's class I learned not to add the muslin sleeves until after the body was fitted, so my suggestion would be to take those off before going further… In fact, in that vein, I'd have simply made a sleeveless muslin of the first pattern and started with cautious side-seam taking in, until the strain lines started to appear. Did you try anything like that, I wonder?

 

Second, I recognize from your description of what you did my own tendency to make too many changes all at once, which invariably—in the early stages at least—leads to having no idea which of the various changes is doing what, too hard to sort them out!

 

Third, I wonder if you'd be willing to post the body pattern shapes, both for the ain't-broke-yet before stage and the now-it's-broken after stages? I'd certainly find those easier to follow and think about than the on-the-body pix and descriptions alone; thanks!

 

Also, I wonder if what motivated this project was the client's wish for something tighter, and if so, if he was perhaps responding to what I see commonly these days, which is an apparent preference for shirts that have just enough (matter of taste!) straining going on to make it clear exactly how buff the wearer is, as opposed to simple smooth fit, such as you'd already achieved…?

 

I look forward to reading the responses, good question!


Edited by dpcoffin, 29 April 2016 - 02:37 PM.


#3 Schneiderfrei

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Posted 29 April 2016 - 02:42 PM

I would think that these drag lines are errors of Major Lateral Balance, in King Wilsons work.

 

http://pdfsr.com/pdf...nd-fitting-1958

 

I drew a diagram to show how these might be imagined in a shirt http://www.cutterand...?showtopic=4001

 

The diagram is at the very end. A good fix is to add cloth at the front neck point, tapering out to the shoulder.

 

If you want a diagram I could put one up.  There are a couple of steps, because you need to reshape the neck hole after you do that.

 

 

 

ps I agree with David above.  And I wonder if he was especially thinking of the large number of changes shown in the Passformfehler Buch.

 

That book is great, I have it, but I think that what you see there is a bit of a recipe, rather than an analysis and reasoning.


Edited by Schneiderfrei, 29 April 2016 - 02:52 PM.

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#4 posaune

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Posted 29 April 2016 - 07:29 PM

If you take out for showing curves you must do this with darts. You have much fabric over the bust
and you want to get ridd of it. Only side seam thightening will not work. There is no other way: darts - or you use knit.
And for a tighter fit you need tighter armholes (with tighter sleeves). They all have quite another form and the shoulderslope is bigger
so that the armhole is close to the body.
You have to use a shaped basic pattern - not a basic shirt.
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#5 bot_bot

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Posted 29 April 2016 - 11:18 PM

First, from Mike Maldonado's class I learned not to add the muslin sleeves until after the body was fitted, so my suggestion would be to take those off before going further… In fact, in that vein, I'd have simply made a sleeveless muslin of the first pattern and started with cautious side-seam taking in, until the strain lines started to appear. Did you try anything like that, I wonder?

 

Second, I recognize from your description of what you did my own tendency to make too many changes all at once, which invariably—in the early stages at least—leads to having no idea which of the various changes is doing what, too hard to sort them out!

 

Third, I wonder if you'd be willing to post the body pattern shapes, both for the ain't-broke-yet before stage and the now-it's-broken after stages? I'd certainly find those easier to follow and think about than the on-the-body pix and descriptions alone; thanks!

 

Also, I wonder if what motivated this project was the client's wish for something tighter, and if so, if he was perhaps responding to what I see commonly these days, which is an apparent preference for shirts that have just enough (matter of taste!) straining going on to make it clear exactly how buff the wearer is, as opposed to simple smooth fit, such as you'd already achieved…?

 

I look forward to reading the responses, good question!

 

Thanks for your reply, Dpcoffin!  All great advice!  

 

I agree about not introducing too many variables at once.  I thought that since the first shirt fit (and since I was basing this next, more fitted one, on the first shirt), then slimming it down would be a breeze.  But, how wrong was I! :)

 

The motivation for trying a more fitted shirt was mutual.  I tend to shy away from overly fitted shirts, since it just presents too many problems and headaches (as is the case now!), not to mention restricting one's mobility.  My friend (client) is also younger (mid-20s) so, naturally, more inclined to want to show off his body than, say, a 40+ y/o.  

 

With that said, though, both of us wanted to see how far it could be pushed.  I'm likely going to be dealing with more athletic types  in the future, so mine as well take this opportunity to see how far things can be pushed.

 

In terms of the patterns, it may take a while.  But, let me see what I can try to post up.

 

 

 

 

I would think that these drag lines are errors of Major Lateral Balance, in King Wilsons work.

 

http://pdfsr.com/pdf...nd-fitting-1958

 

I drew a diagram to show how these might be imagined in a shirt http://www.cutterand...?showtopic=4001

 

The diagram is at the very end. A good fix is to add cloth at the front neck point, tapering out to the shoulder.

 

If you want a diagram I could put one up.  There are a couple of steps, because you need to reshape the neck hole after you do that.

 

 

 

ps I agree with David above.  And I wonder if he was especially thinking of the large number of changes shown in the Passformfehler Buch.

 

That book is great, I have it, but I think that what you see there is a bit of a recipe, rather than an analysis and reasoning.

 

Thanks, Schneiderfrei for the reply, and for the link!  I think you're right!  When I look at some of the other photos from the side (not posted here), I noticed that the chest and waist lines on the muslin are all angling upwards.  

 

Just to keep my original post more focused, I didn't mention that I had also made changes to the back (increasing the back dart intake & taking out the excess from the back arm scye).  I think that those changes to the back may have started to pull on the front.  Or, what is more likely, the imbalance was already there and just became more evident and exaggerated by making the shirt more fitted.

 

Anyway, this is the route I'll try to remedy the problem.  Thanks!

 

 

 

If you take out for showing curves you must do this with darts. You have much fabric over the bust
and you want to get ridd of it. Only side seam thightening will not work. There is no other way: darts - or you use knit.
And for a tighter fit you need tighter armholes (with tighter sleeves). They all have quite another form and the shoulderslope is bigger
so that the armhole is close to the body.
You have to use a shaped basic pattern - not a basic shirt.
lg
posaune

 

Thanks, Posaune for your thoughts.  I will look into adding a dart in the front (after first correcting for the imbalance that Schneiderfrei mentioned).



#6 dpcoffin

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Posted 30 April 2016 - 02:47 AM

If you take out for showing curves you must do this with darts. You have much fabric over the bust
and you want to get ridd of it. Only side seam thightening will not work. There is no other way: darts - or you use knit.
And for a tighter fit you need tighter armholes (with tighter sleeves). They all have quite another form and the shoulderslope is bigger
so that the armhole is close to the body.
You have to use a shaped basic pattern - not a basic shirt.
lg
posaune

 

 

Ditto! There's only so far you can take a basic shirt pattern, which below the arms is little more than a big pillow case.
 

For the most shirt-ike results I'd suggest trying "princess" seams rather than darts front and back; I prefer those that end in the armholes for men. Made with a narrow felling foot they can be very elegant, and offer much more shaping power than a few darts, which I still feel are ugly work-arounds that ruin the natural fall of the garment unless the whole thing is very tight…in which case, seams are simply better—my opinion anyway:)


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#7 Learner

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Posted 30 April 2016 - 04:53 AM

 

       3.  Raised the ARMHOLES so that they started at either chest level or a bit above.

 

 

To make the shirt fit more closely, you have to remove material.  By raising the bottom of the armhole, you've added material under the arm, and this extra material is flopping down and causing those folds. 



#8 greger

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Posted 30 April 2016 - 03:18 PM

For the most shirt-ike results I'd suggest trying "princess" seams rather than darts front and back; I prefer those that end in the armholes for men. Made with a narrow felling foot they can be very elegant, and offer much more shaping power than a few darts, which I still feel are ugly work-arounds that ruin the natural fall of the garment unless the whole thing is very tight…in which case, seams are simply better—my opinion anyway:)


Darts are for women's blouses. On men's shirts it seems effeminate unless it is an interesting design future. Princess seams is another idea. An underarm piece might be a better idea. This would be two fronts, two sides (the underarm pieces) and the back.

#9 Schneiderfrei

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Posted 30 April 2016 - 06:19 PM

Could we be back to the side-body shirt?  Is there a draft for such a thing?


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#10 Terri

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Posted 30 April 2016 - 08:55 PM

When you decreased the chest size, how much did you remove! Did you remove an equal amount through the complete side seam?
It doesn't look like you modified the shape of the armhole, which has to happen with a closer fit. In fact so many things change. Distribution of the ease has to be more specific to the figure.

As Posaune says, using a draft that is set up as closer fitting should be a better starting point than a regular shirt draft just taken in.

Finding one may be a challenge

#11 SealKing

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Posted 30 April 2016 - 11:55 PM

I have little experience in shirt cutting, but the drags at the side of chest look very similar to what one would gather into a chest dart when it comes to draping a women's garment.

 

From that trait I would guess that this person's chest is simply too pronounced for anything more "defined" (not necessarily tight)than a straight tunic cut.

 

May I ask when you added ease back to the chest, did you add the same amount to the waist and hem? If not then you would have increased the difference between the chest and waist even more and further necessitate the use of a chest dart, which unfortunately is not quite suitable for a men's shirt.


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#12 lepus

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Posted 01 May 2016 - 03:17 AM

Why not use a torso line shirt draft? It is easily developed from a basic shirt pattern by adding lines in front and back. As a starting point, A-C is 5 in., B-D is 6 in., E-F is 4 in., but they should really be positioned to be flattering for the individual (first mark them with a line of pins or chalk on toile). Ease can then be taken out of the waist in each seam and additionally, if needed, out of the side seam. If the side seam is kept straight a single side panel can be used instead.

shirt_torso_Line_75.png

Don't take to much out of the chest ease, it is not only there for style but also to allow breathing and arm movements to take place. Sometimes a marked waist reduction on figures that allow it will give the desired "inflated" chest impression.

 


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#13 dpcoffin

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Posted 01 May 2016 - 04:22 AM

Why not use a torso line shirt draft? 

 

 

Ah, that's a much better term, in this context, than "princess seam", and it's exactly what I meant by that; thanks:)


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#14 Schneiderfrei

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Posted 01 May 2016 - 11:38 AM

That is very cool, thank you lepus.


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#15 greger

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Posted 01 May 2016 - 03:12 PM

Could we be back to the side-body shirt?  Is there a draft for such a thing?


Tailors are the ones who write the books, if he writes one at 'll. That means tailors invent everything in their books. That is part of the pleasure of being a tailor. Of course, they learn the basics from other tailors during the apprenticeship. But after that they are on their own. Some tailors actually get very angry at other tailors who haven't invented their own pattern systems. Therefore, all the pattern systems you see that are made by others are merely learning tools.
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#16 maiagus

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Posted 02 May 2016 - 06:26 AM

SEalKing has a point. The problem here may derive from the "un-offset" imbalances created when the chest ease was taken out.

I've faced a simliar problem when fitting for myself. Taking ease from the chest requires taking it also from the waist, and maybe adding to the hem.

Usually an athletic figure has prominents chest and butt - if one can be blunt. So, by fitting the chest one creates an imbalance on the butt.

I mean, on fig1, one can visualize circles going relatively straight from the chest to the hem, in a somewhat straight column.

When one fit the "chest circle", taking it also form the waist, it is like one have put the "chest circle" forward in relation to the "seat circle", thus the drape.

Looking on the side, the mockups in fig 2 and 3 probably drape a little above the waist in the back. That is the column (chest circle to seat circle) leaning forward.

The drapes on fig 2-3 are showing the "tension" created from this leaning - the nipples to the upper butt, basically where the imaginary circles would lay.

So one solution is adding on the hem, taking from the waist, specially on the back.

That is somehow waht is shown on fig4. Those alterations were intended to allow the fabric to follow easily the curve formed on the back - from below the chest and to above the seat. 



#17 thrawn235

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Posted 08 November 2016 - 05:18 AM

Hello, I've been reading these forums for a while, and at the same time tried to come up with a shirt pattern for myself.

I seem to have exactly the same problem.

 

(i also fiddled around with the pattern for a while and took some fabric out the side seams to make it more form fitting and raised the armhole by adding fabric, all at the same time...)

 

I tried a few things and the most effective was to pin away some material from the side seam, to shorten it, like Learner suggested.

 

I'm at a loss now tough because i don't know how to shorten the side seam (in my pattern) without changing the circumference of my armhole or the shoulder slope. Can one point me in the right direction ?

 

it would be greatly appreciated.






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