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#1 HautenDandy

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Posted 10 September 2016 - 08:37 AM

Hello all,

 

I hope this, like my last post can be on going for all the apprentices with questions regarding shirts.

 



#2 HautenDandy

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Posted 10 September 2016 - 08:38 AM

My question would be:

 

Regarding the sleeves.
 

Is sleeve cap height a preference? Or is there some way of figuring this

I know that the smaller the sleeve cap the more movement the shirt sleeve is capable of.

I ask because I keep getting wrinkles on front and back of the sleeve.

At first I thought it was because my shoulder point wasnt long enough, therefore pulling the sleeve up and the extra material gathers on either side, but now that I have put it directly on the falling point of the shoulder I still get wrinkles on either side using a 4 inch sleeve cap?

Im not sure if this matters, but the measure on my front armscye is quite a big larger then the back. Would this create a problem? as I have a larger chest hence why I made the front armscye larger.



#3 Schneiderfrei

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Posted 10 September 2016 - 11:49 AM

You might need a picture of the draft for this one.

 

JCSprowls wrote here once that he was requested to make up some 7 inch sleeve caps.  

 

They were for a model shoot. The models would not have been able to lift their arms though.

 

There is further fitting variation possible through modifying the profile of the sleeve head and the arm hole itself.


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#4 dpcoffin

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Posted 10 September 2016 - 12:09 PM

I don't have a quick formula or solution to offer, but were I to make a stab at one, I'd need to ask a few more questions of you, since I believe the issue has more factors than your question has alluded to.

 

How close-fitting is the rest of the shirt?

 

Can you show us a picture of someone wearing a shirt that's about as close-fitting as you'd like yourself, and getting no wrinkles on the sleeve where you're getting wrinkles? If you can find one in which the shirt is also made from a plaid or checked fabric, or even with a vertical stripe, show us that one.

 

 

I wouldn't agree that the smaller the cap the more movement; I don't think the issue is that simple, particularly since your main question is focused on wrinkles, not movement. There's a difference between ease of movement, and movement with least wrinkles. I'd agree that the higher and more closely fitted the armhole, the more movement without pulling up the side seam when raising the arms, and that the flatter the cap, the more perpendicular the sleeve will be to the shirt body when flat, so the shirt will allow for the arms to take that position with little strain, but with lots of sleeve wrinkles when the arms are falling more parallel to the body.

Also, I'd say that your question suggests you're imagining that there's certain narrow range of pattern shapes and in particular, sleeve-cap and armhole shapes that will result in a shirt that fits well, while I'd say that, taking the "big picture" and considering lots of different ages and shapes of wearers, there are a very wide range of ways a shirt can be considered to fit well, but upon which not every one will agree, fashion and preferences being what they are. So, yes. sleeve cap height IS a preference!

 

Assuming, if I may, that you've got in mind the current fashion for very close-fitting shirts, I'd further say that with shirts like these, shirt pattern shapes need to be quite unlike those seen in most drafts and patterns for "basic" shirts produced in the last, say, 50 years or more, much more like those shapes more common on any other sort of closely -fitted upper-body garments, which is to say, more like those of classic fitted-bodice slopers or molded then cut flat fitted body-wraps. And that these shapes, as with all pattern shapes for close-fitting garments, will require considerably more fine-tuning and personalized adjustment for each individual than will the pattern shapes for shirts that fit more loosely—obviously, as the descriptions imply.

Finally, I'd say that a 4-inch sleeve cap would be, for any sort of closely fitted pattern, quite a short or flat one, and quite unlikely to be deep enough to work well on a closely-fitted shirt. Take a look at the well-known images from Ruben Bakker's famous blog-post on custom fitting a shirt:
http://www.rubenbakk...he-first-place/
( bigger here:
 https://www.pinterest.com/pin/408209153706930403/   )
—and
while he doesn't specify the cap height in the pictured shirt, it's quite clear in the images that his are quite a bit taller than 4 inches. Incidentally, here's what he says at the time about shirts, wrinkles (drape) and fitting:

 

"One thing of note with shirts is that they are in effect “drapey” garments, and should be treated as such. It is first of all a leisure garment and not a body glove. It also has less seams than a coat, and shirting cloth cannot be worked with the iron at all. Some drape thus will occur, and it is my job to make that drape be functional rather than result from fitting issues."

 

I'd say that often these days, what's wanted, and seen worn, IS actually quite like a body glove and not much like the shirts described in the drafts easily found at this site and in current books on shirt drafting.

 

If only I'd had my camera ready recently as I watched a current TV movie in which the male lead wore a basically skin-tight woven shirt and in one scene was shown with both arms fully raised and wrapped behind his head as he relaxed on a couch, with shirt fabric still stretched as tight against his arms, underarms and chest, without his shirt ripping open at the sides or armholes, as it'd been when he standing, arms down. Fortunately, I CAN show images of him in more normal positions in his skin-tight shirt, thanks to Pinterest: 

 

https://www.pinteres...54633928578217/

 

https://www.pinteres...54633928578162/

 

(I know—Hallmark?!?!? Don't ask… But it IS a good place to see lots of guys in very tight, tiny-collared, modern, and presumably fashionable, shirts!)

 

I think it's clear here, as well; these sleeve caps are quite a bit taller than 4 inches. Note how high and tight the armholes are, and how short the yoke, too.

 


Edited by dpcoffin, 10 September 2016 - 12:40 PM.

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#5 Terri

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Posted 10 September 2016 - 11:35 PM

It is all about the overall ease in the body, and the resulting armhole fit.
Shirts with a lot of body ease/wider or dropped shoulders, can take a flatter sleeve more easily in fact they would look odd with a high capped sleeve shape.
Shirts that fit closer to the body would look odd with the flatter sleeve cap shape.

If your shirt is more like a body glove then I recommend looking at women's drafting systems to see the sleeve shapes there and how they are developed. I don't think you are going to find a lot of pertinent reference for men's close fitting shirt sleeves, as it is a fairly recent fashion style and I doubt that published works have caught up to addressing the issue.

Generally speaking though, it may be better to develop your sleeve size using a proportion of the armhole size rather than a generic 4" cap height.
You also need to take into account the minimum size you need around the upper arm, which is why I suggest looking at some women's drafts as they often use that as a base to go from. Natalie Bray comes to mind.
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#6 dpcoffin

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Posted 11 September 2016 - 01:55 AM

Here's a quite interesting discussion on developing a fitted-sleeve sloper for a woman (thank you for being the first to suggest such a thing here, Terri; I certainly didn't want that duty:).

 

While I certainly agree with Terri on the usefulness of looking beyond what's available or conventional in men's shirt drafts, I find it hard to imagine that the shapes in the no-doubt off-the-rack shirt worn by the actor pictured above are all that unlike conventional shirt pattern shapes, just scaled down to provide less ease…and with a taller sleeve cap than 4 in. In other words, I don't think that this new style of fit—which equally applies to jackets—comes now, or originally came from, some innovative, re-thought pattern drafts appearing in RTW shirt outlets, as much as from guys just choosing smaller sizes to get rid of unwanted ease, caring little about introducing a few strain-line in the process. Indeed, strain-lines appear to be part of the look, especially on well developed bodies; once again Pinterest provides many examples.

 

So, I'd further guess that the main difference in the drafts and sizing tables in current RTW use that fill the needs of this new look for shirts and jackets are different mainly in allowed ease and in allowed lengths in relation to circumferences. Of course, there's no reason custom creations can't be more innovative and more adventurous with much more refined results, but I suspect that any such efforts would need to be very subtle (eg, taller caps, sure, but no new seams!) to suit most men, who aren't likely to want it at all obvious that their shirts are "weird" in any way.


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#7 posaune

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Posted 11 September 2016 - 06:48 AM

Yes, David, I think RTW is the wrong address here. RTW (must) draft for their customer's range and not for the induvidual.
And as less the ease as lesser the people it would fit and buy.
A higher cap means a smaller sleeve - biceps is reduced (This is custom's job).
To say the cap height is about 4" is in my opinion not good, because as Terri stated, it all depends on armhole height.
A big guy has a larger armhole so 4" will be not so much for him. You should switch to percentage to get a discussion base.
Maybe 73 % of armhole height or so.
And maybe look at unisex drafting as in Unicut.
But do not be to surprised if the bust dart comes up. (Which is done concealed in a coat draft for men)
lg
posaune
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