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All questions regarding trimmings!

Trimmings trousers vests questions makeup canvas interlining waistband hymo wigan

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#1 HautenDandy

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Posted 14 October 2016 - 08:41 AM

Hello all,

 

Hoping these all question threads will tidy up the search results in clumping information and "like" questions together.

 

 

My first questions, regarding trimmings, is size of buttons for trousers and vests.

 

No. 24 for the main buttons I believe I read somewhere?

 

What size for fly and brace buttons.

 

What is the usual canvas for vests? med firm?

 

What canvas, if we do not want to use premade waistband canvas that seems disagreeably firm, should we use for the waistband in trousers?

 

Size of stay tape usually used through vest and trousers?

 

Thank you all!

 

HD



#2 Schneiderfrei

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Posted 14 October 2016 - 09:22 AM

Well, "No. 24" isn't quite right.  Lignes is the traditional measurement for buttons.

 

The large, suit front buttons are often 32 lignes = 20mm.  For the fly buttons, braces buttons and vest front, not to mention cuffs, I like 24 lignes = 15 mm. 

 

http://www.mjtrim.com/pdf/buttons.pdf

 

http://prestigebutto...rn-suit-buttons

 

For waistcoat canvas many folks here have suggested Holland linen canvas,  I have used light weight hair canvas.  Be aware that it is cut on the bias.

 

For waistbands I have only used heavy hair canvas doubled over and basted along its length. Can't see any reason to use anything else.

 

Stay tape on trouser pocket edges, fly edges and vest fronts I use 12 mm mostly except on the front edge of the vest I use a 20 mm width so as to spread the increased thickness a bit.

 

G


Edited by Schneiderfrei, 15 October 2016 - 12:19 AM.

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#3 Henry Hall

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Posted 14 October 2016 - 07:24 PM

For waistbands that are taking braces, I'd say French canvas, medium jute (not rough sacking) or something similar. On plain top trousers that means you have a single, sufficiently firm piece that won't pull out of shape.

 

I've found in the past that it's too easy to initially worry about putting too much in the waistband, then when after everything is pressed and the band finished, it seems a lot flimsier than imagined.

 

Pre-made waistbanding is doubtless not a problem for those wanting to use it. I know they use it at the tailor's in this city. Personally I'm just too much of a skinflint to pay for the rolls and it's not useful for shaped waistbands.


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#4 leedsman1954

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Posted 15 October 2016 - 06:05 AM

 Fly buttons are usually 23l and brace buttons 27l, or at least they usually are in England.


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#5 greger

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Posted 15 October 2016 - 08:08 AM

Maybe 22, 24, # or size. Brace buttons are a different size. Also 22, 24 is fine for pants and sleeves and vest. Any proper company knows buttons are measured in lignes.

Holland linen canvas or vest canvass for vest.

Linen, if you can find it for stay tape. 3/8 inch is a good width. One company had 1/8 and 1/4 inch, saying, back then, that tailors were using the 1/8 inch (cotton). Bias tape is different, because it is stretchy. Believe Rory Duffy uses bias for some places. There is also a really thin linen tape that is about one inch wide, that is nice. Some will cut Holland Linen into strips the width and length they want to use it.
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#6 Schneiderfrei

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Posted 15 October 2016 - 09:14 AM

Thanks Leedsman,

 

These details aren't always easy to know in the colonies :)


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#7 Terri

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Posted 16 October 2016 - 12:00 AM

For waistcoat canvas many folks here have suggested Holland linen canvas, I have used light weight hair canvas. Be aware that it is cut on the bias.


I don't think that cutting the hair canvas on the bias is necessarily "always done", but would love to discuss the reasoning behind it.

One guess that I can make is that the hair canvas on the bias would place its straight grain along the neckline edge of the fronts.
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#8 Schneiderfrei

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Posted 16 October 2016 - 12:53 AM

Hi terri,

 

I should be much more careful about quotes like that, of course.  

 

So it says in Der ABC des Schneiderhandwerk.  Although in many cases, especially in the trouser volume, there is an enlightening discussion about why the thing should be bias, it seems that the author of the Weste volume decided not to say what he thought.  

 

In fact, what it says is:

 

"As is seen in Abb 11 the grain of the canvas is bias [diagonal].  It is also recommended that the corners are cut out along the dotted lines, so that the waist and hips of the waistcoat settle better onto the body.  The dart of the inlay is most easily done by overlapping and is closed with a  zig zag stitch.  Also the inlay gets the necessary shape through a light stroke from the pressing iron."

 

Abb%2011_zpsefdjqnty.jpg

 

 

 I can imagine that the canvas cut diagonally would conform to a curved shape better than straight cut, especially when there is minimal ironwork involved.  And it is true that the grain at the shoulder will be straighter.

 

G

 

ps I would like to know more about that little slice at the top of the front which is depicted opened in the finished piece, but not discussed in the text.


Edited by Schneiderfrei, 16 October 2016 - 08:45 AM.

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#9 posaune

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Posted 16 October 2016 - 02:22 AM

Giving room for the shoulder bone?
lg
posaune

#10 Schneidergott

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Posted 16 October 2016 - 06:49 AM

Many of the canvasses for waist coats were on the harder and stiffer side back then, so my guess is that cutting the material on the bias helps later on with the shaping.

The horizontal chalk mark at the front edge marks the cut for the puff. This allows a little bit of ease for the shoulder bone.

The top of the front edge gets a little stretching, hence the puff in the canvas.

 

Here in the UK you can get linen tape in various widths that have a bias tape sewn to it. This bias tape is sewn to the cloth part of the waistband.

Picture from: http://www.kentontri...products_id=588

 

banrol.JPG


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#11 Terri

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Posted 16 October 2016 - 08:26 AM

I imagined the neck edge being placed vertically along the straight grain, not what is pictured. Interesting. You would want a stable hair canvas otherwise you risk the canvas stretching out.
Its also strange to think of fullt canvassing a waistcoat in fabric of that time which I imagine had a bit more body than most fabrics do now.
Thanks for sharing.

#12 Schneiderfrei

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Posted 16 October 2016 - 08:41 AM

I thought that too terri, because of the shape of the canvas piece, but it you look closely at the weave it is actually on the bias.  

 

It may be that the image is not fine enough.

 

I have changed the image, you can see the grain a bit better now.

 

G


Edited by Schneiderfrei, 16 October 2016 - 08:46 AM.

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#13 peterle

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Posted 17 October 2016 - 07:49 PM

The quoted ABC book calls the required material a " Zwischenfutter". it was defenitely no hair canvas (=Rosshaar), more something like a nettle.

 

@ Schneiderfrei: in Abb 23 of the book you can see the woolen front has to be stretched at the neckhole ( three crosses). you can´t do this on the nettle piece, therefore you have to slash and open it. You can see the gaping slash in Abb 24 and 25.


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#14 Schneiderfrei

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Posted 18 October 2016 - 12:37 AM

There it is again, the nettle cloth.  

 

And Hans C Andersen again, I always think of the swans.  Also the nettle is the closest species to hemp no wonder it would be used in garment making.

 

Thank you peterle, I could see it was to be stretched but not why.

 

How can one know that Zwischenfutter cannot be hair canvas (Rosshaar)?

 

G


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#15 lepus

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Posted 18 October 2016 - 02:32 AM

How can one know that Zwischenfutter cannot be hair canvas (Rosshaar)?

 

 

By looking it up? ;)

Zwischenfutter
Lose eingestelltes, hart appretiertes Baumwollfutter, das als leichte Einlage für Ärmelsäume, Westeneinlagen, Knopf- und Knopflochverstärkungen und sonstige Beilagen eingesetzt wird.[...]

Bekleidungslexikon, W. Schierbaum

It's a usually blueish-grey, thin cotton fabric that was and is used by West-European continental tailors for waistcoats and sleeve hems.
Haircloth of some type would be too thick and stiff for a waistcoat that isn't supposed to have a strongly structured shape but to follow the body in a supple way. I have some here but am unable to take pictures at the moment.


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#16 peterle

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Posted 18 October 2016 - 04:02 AM

Well, the german word Nessel (nettle) is usually used for a cheap unbleached raw cotton fabric ( the one with the tiny small black spots). once upon a time this material was really made of nettles, hence the name. Probably the right translation would be muslin. ( The german term Musseline on the other hand means a completely different kind of fabric)


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#17 Schneiderfrei

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Posted 18 October 2016 - 06:42 AM

Thank you peterle and  Lepus.

 

Peterle, I have seen examples of very old linen muslin that was firm and much more structured than what mostly available today.


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#18 Henry Hall

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Posted 18 October 2016 - 07:25 AM

That stuff Peterle describes (with the dark spots) is what I buy at the cloth market for €2 or €4 a metre and it is indeed sometimes marked up as 'netelstof', but mostly just 'unbleached cotton'. It comes in widths over 150cm.

 

I originally put it in a few waistcoats, but it really needs washing before use because it leeches a nasty ochre-coloured liquid when washed. Also waxy substances. After washing it's a lot less substantial - it is those impurities that make it stiffer.

 

This is is why fine jute is better. It's cleaner, supple, and lighter than canvas, but still has enough body.


Edited by Henry Hall, 18 October 2016 - 07:26 AM.

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