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#1 benjaminh

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Posted 27 May 2018 - 03:35 AM

Hello all,

I've started this new thread for my second attempt at drafting, fitting and sewing a men's shirt. The last was getting long, so I wanted to begin a new thread for this one. Schneiderfrei has very kindly provided me with a recent Rundschau draft which he had translated, so I've used that to make my draft, a picture of which is shown below. This draft has 11cm of ease, so it hopefully will provide a serviceable shirt. Please comment if you see any glaring errors. I'm getting material next week, so I will begin constructing this muslin then.

 

bpu1n6avhlhblo24g.jpg

 

Benjamin


Edited by benjaminh, 27 May 2018 - 03:37 AM.


#2 Schneiderfrei

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Posted 27 May 2018 - 09:59 AM

I would hasten to add that the use of this draft is for non-profit and private study.

 

If anyone likes the way the Rundschau draft works out, the book is available from Mueller u. Sohn.

 

https://www.muellers...ller_de_euro_ms

 

The title below is in English: it is said to include shirt pattern development, but I don't know how similar the draft would be.

 

https://www.muellers...entals-menswear


Shell made out of gold
Found on a beach picked up and you held so close


#3 tombennett

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Posted 30 May 2018 - 05:29 PM

Must buy this book, see what all the fuss is about. :thumbsup:


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#4 pfaff260

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Posted 31 May 2018 - 02:32 PM

My version was different in the calculation. The shirt is the same. Maybe you could look at it and see how much difference there would be in your meassurements.



#5 benjaminh

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Posted 03 June 2018 - 10:35 AM

OK, here's the muslin made up from the above Rundschau. I followed posaune's advice and dispensed with the yoke. I apologize for the poor pictures, but my regular camera is gone. The horizontal white lines indicate waistline and bustline, and are parallel to the crossgrain. I've staystiched the neckline and armhole on the seam line, and clipped to the stitching.

 

I definitely think that this draft is superior to the last one I was using, the shirt feels great, and is closer to fitting at the beginning of this process than was the last one. I think the balance is pretty good, as the side seam hangs close to vertical. Might need the front let down a little. Main issue I see is the shoulder/neck area. 

 

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jm07g3j3evwtoaw6g.jpg

6zxdx4zoiorh24o6g.jpg

pvepw33ve4et70a6g.jpg


Edited by benjaminh, 03 June 2018 - 10:36 AM.

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#6 posaune

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Posted 04 June 2018 - 06:18 AM

looks real better, Benjaminh.

Now let's analyse

first pic Back view

Center line is straight in the upper part it is a little bending  to the right neck side.

The shoulder looks wavy and the neck seems not in the center. Right shoulder looks higher than left.

The bust line is going out at the shoulderblades and caves in at the spine and you have there folds originate from between waist/hip sideseam  (and maybe the back width is a bit wide - see the lower armhole) going to the blades. The right hip looks a bit higher then the left , see folds.

2. pic side

enough room under the pits posture shows a belly before bust in front.

3. Pic front

The center front is straight (put it is pinned)

the waist line is a bit more rising than the bustline. The folds originate from between waist and hip and end at bustpoint. The neck looks centered and the wavy shoulder is not to see. The front neck is a bit like so \/. There should be a right angle at the center front edge - more like an u. Then the collar will sit nicely.

4. pic

here you are in a  posture like this:Belly is before bust. The bum is showed in front. (And the fabric in back is little bit too much after the hAe point). The back is longer as front about maybe 2 cm. The waist line goes up in front. Did you use your measured Rh? Or the formula?

 

You see to fit you after pics is not easy. You show a good posture and a sloppy one. The sloppy one on the last pic is not easy to fit.

lg

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#7 benjaminh

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Posted 07 June 2018 - 11:21 AM



looks real better, Benjaminh.

Now let's analyse

first pic Back view

Center line is straight in the upper part it is a little bending  to the right neck side.

The shoulder looks wavy and the neck seems not in the center. Right shoulder looks higher than left.

The bust line is going out at the shoulderblades and caves in at the spine and you have there folds originate from between waist/hip sideseam  (and maybe the back width is a bit wide - see the lower armhole) going to the blades. The right hip looks a bit higher then the left , see folds.

2. pic side

enough room under the pits posture shows a belly before bust in front.

3. Pic front

The center front is straight (put it is pinned)

the waist line is a bit more rising than the bustline. The folds originate from between waist and hip and end at bustpoint. The neck looks centered and the wavy shoulder is not to see. The front neck is a bit like so \/. There should be a right angle at the center front edge - more like an u. Then the collar will sit nicely.

4. pic

here you are in a  posture like this:Belly is before bust. The bum is showed in front. (And the fabric in back is little bit too much after the hAe point). The back is longer as front about maybe 2 cm. The waist line goes up in front. Did you use your measured Rh? Or the formula?

 

You see to fit you after pics is not easy. You show a good posture and a sloppy one. The sloppy one on the last pic is not easy to fit.

lg

posaune

 

Thanks for the help posaune. I think what happened in this last fitting was that I was "trying" to hard to be relaxed, which ended up in my losing my normal good posture. I'm posting some fresh pictures with what should be my normal posture.

 

I used the formula that came with the draft to obtain the Rh measurement; I'm not sure what the hAe point is?

 

ca9e6ioiej9kbc54g.jpg

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n1p803oaaeme3mi4g.jpg



#8 posaune

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Posted 07 June 2018 - 06:23 PM

well better now.

 

I still think the back is a bit wide (drapey). (hAe point is about 1/4 Rh up from bust line, end of the back armhole curve) Armhole stitching reaches into the arm. It should run in the crease. I think it is about 1- 1.5 cm.

Pin out right side from the dart tip till heA from 0 to 1.5 cm and then straight down1.5 cm. If better do the left side too- but be carefull it might be different there. Then it maybe we have to add this amount to the front , especially around hip.

The front : we see the bust line goes up and the waist line too. But the waist line more. (And it is different between right and left) If you look at the hem of the shirt front is shorter than the back. So the balance is not right.

To prove this: Put on the shirt open one shoulder seam till near the shoulder point , pin it closed with 1 pin at the bustline. Now look  how you must pin your front shoulder to the back shoulder that the front centerline falls level. if you made success then alter the other side in the same way.

(I think too that something has to altered at the back too balancewise. It has a bit to shortened but this will come later)

There is a 2. area where I'm not sure what's going on: that is the back neck. In the back pic there are some folds to see. But you cut away your neck and head in the pic.

One step after one step.

lg

posaune


Edited by posaune, 07 June 2018 - 06:24 PM.

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#9 benjaminh

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Posted 08 June 2018 - 02:01 PM

Thanks posaune for all your help, I really appreciate it.

 



I still think the back is a bit wide (drapey). (hAe point is about 1/4 Rh up from bust line, end of the back armhole curve) Armhole stitching reaches into the arm. It should run in the crease. I think it is about 1- 1.5 cm.

Pin out right side from the dart tip till heA from 0 to 1.5 cm and then straight down1.5 cm. If better do the left side too- but be carefull it might be different there. 

 

Thanks for explaining what the hAe point is; I'm posting some pictures below of the muslin with the back darts pinned out as you described. I didn't have time to address the balance tonight, I'll have to work on that later.

 

0m779plw33ptish4g.jpg

ktttjak8uonnp184g.jpg

yj10oco2u11md9c4g.jpg

b3pkhsgbezcb8bz4g.jpg

pslmmm8cm5vs38a4g.jpg


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#10 posaune

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Posted 09 June 2018 - 02:32 AM

well it is a bit much out over the bum but nevertheless better.  Relase the half of it.

For balance try to pin a fold across the back in center of armhole about 1 cm. And then adjust the front if necessary.

lg

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#11 benjaminh

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Posted 09 June 2018 - 09:25 AM

well it is a bit much out over the bum but nevertheless better.  Relase the half of it.

 

Do you mean to release the lower half, or release half the width over the entire dart length?


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#12 posaune

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Posted 09 June 2018 - 06:53 PM

It is the left hip which is slightly going out and the front shirt caves in below belly. So from waist down would do. I hope we must not do a right and a left side, because it is not much (when you stand like this) so enough ease that the shirt can flow over the bumps and is still not too wide is the goal.

Because of your new pics I could measure your shoulder slope. I measured 24^ A bit more than average. That would explain some of the side seam folds.

 

Maybe before you are doing anything else take up the shoulder at SP point maybe 0.75 cm (back and front) - taper to nothing at neck point and look what those u- folds are doing. If the armhole will be too high in the armpits now - clipp  the stitching line . After this balance

Here it all cost so much time, in reality it would take just some minutes and the fit would be okay. It is frustrating.

lg

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#13 benjaminh

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Posted 10 June 2018 - 04:36 AM



I hope we must not do a right and a left side, because it is not much (when you stand like this) so enough ease that the shirt can flow over the bumps and is still not too wide is the goal.

 

This is definetely my goal as well; I'd like to keep the shirt symmetrical for simplicity sake. 

 

Here are some pictures with the shoulders taken up, and the dart let out after the waistline.

 

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dn42wxadxewdlzr4g.jpg

je93gz1e3zxq9nk4g.jpg

e4v23atmn4s0enq4g.jpg 


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#14 posaune

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Posted 10 June 2018 - 06:15 AM

yep way better. Now we do something for your shoulderblades. I have a pic at mediafire. There is an alteration shown for the more length you need over the blades. It can be that you must clip the back neck  a bit after this. I think the back neck is high. I give you the link.

http://www.mediafire...oulder.png/file

it shows in the shaded area the alteration for the back width in the paper pattern. You rotate the side dart into shoulder. Then cut like an L (mirrowed) the whole amrhole and rotate it in .

Now for shoulder blade length: you cut in center of armhole across the back. Here is shown an opening of the CB seam about 3 mm. You do NOT do this. You just shove both pieces up 5 mm. Then rotate the CB seam again close and at armhole too.  So we have added 5 mm to get length for the shoulder blades. Now you draw a plumb CB seam again. You move the neck hole the distance you cutted of at CB to the left and you make the dart smaller with the same amount.

Look how it fits. If enough you can rotate the dart back. If not another 2.5 mm. Then again check for balance (but it is better now). I think some length is needed and some widthin front.  As the folds are slanted it maybe length(maybe 1 cm)  and width(maybe 0.75). It is up to you what to do first.

lg

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#15 benjaminh

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Posted 10 June 2018 - 09:27 AM

yep way better. Now we do something for your shoulderblades. I have a pic at mediafire. There is an alteration shown for the more length you need over the blades. It can be that you must clip the back neck  a bit after this. I think the back neck is high. I give you the link.

http://www.mediafire...oulder.png/file

it shows in the shaded area the alteration for the back width in the paper pattern. You rotate the side dart into shoulder. Then cut like an L (mirrowed) the whole amrhole and rotate it in .

Now for shoulder blade length: you cut in center of armhole across the back. Here is shown an opening of the CB seam about 3 mm. You do NOT do this. You just shove both pieces up 5 mm. Then rotate the CB seam again close and at armhole too.  So we have added 5 mm to get length for the shoulder blades. Now you draw a plumb CB seam again. You move the neck hole the distance you cutted of at CB to the left and you make the dart smaller with the same amount.

Look how it fits. If enough you can rotate the dart back. If not another 2.5 mm. Then again check for balance (but it is better now). I think some length is needed and some widthin front.  As the folds are slanted it maybe length(maybe 1 cm)  and width(maybe 0.75). It is up to you what to do first.

lg

posaune

 

Just a couple questions about this modification: what do you mean about rotating the side dart into the shoulder? Is the side dart what will become the yoke/back seam eventually?

When you refer to "center of armhole across the back," are you speaking of the vertical cut shown in the drawing? 

 

I assume that all these modifications should be made to the paper pattern, and then I must cut a fresh back for this muslin, seeing as I have no CB seam to work with?


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#16 posaune

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Posted 10 June 2018 - 07:08 PM

We are now at the paper pattern and no- you need no new paper pattern and no CB seam, CB is on fold and stays on fold - but how should I namel it??

Lay your back pattern on a piece of paper. Fasten it with tape left and right at busthole line. Draw a guide line vertical up at CB, Then you can better move the pattern pieces.

You have at armhole a side dart. In your case where the yoke will be. For betterpattern manipulation you rotate this dart up into the shoulder.

How to do it: You cut the upper leg of the dart to dart point und then straight up to shoulder. To close the old dart you rotate this piece to the other dart leg. Rotating point is the dart point. A shoulder dart will open. Fix the rotated piece  with tape (clear glueing tape). Now you cut horizontal across. You can do it hrough the dart point like it was a yoke. Because the dart is open, you get 2 pieces. (Normaly the armhole dart is in center of armhole height and later moved up for the yoke, but it does not matter so much where you cut). Mark 5 mm at the CB guide line up. Move both parts up together. Rotate now both down (rotation point is at dart point) so that the CB seam is closed and the armhole seam too. You have get an upside down V-shaped inset.

Now you see that the center piece's  CB seam  is angled. You don't want this.

You connect your guide line with the CB seam and you measure how much you have to take away. In our case it is 2.7 mm. You do a horizontal guide line from the neck shoulder Point. You mark on the guide line 0.27 cm. You redraw the neckhole form CB to New neck shoulder point. You measure the old shoulderline fron Neck point shoulder to the dart. You draw the new shoulder that is now the same length. This will shorten the dart intake.

This is the alteration for shoulder blades. I have left out the general going up at center as your pattern is sitting already high at the CB neck.

 

 

Ther vertical cut shows how the make your Backwidth smaller - like you did with the pinning out without to have draw the pattern new.  You cut in under the armhole und up the shoulder . You rotate it in about the pinned amount - which should be 0.75 cm (right?) at hAe point. Fix it with tape. Then go down the same amount inward to waist point and to hem.

 

After this you can redraw your fabric back. You could use your old back nothing important has changed besides the shoulder slope which you should draw into the pattern. Just mark your new seam lines on and sew it new to the front part. But first check if your space under the pits is enough after the altering for  more slope. A shirt can have 1,5 - 2 cm. Use your finers to check.

hell what a bunch of words

lg

posaune


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#17 benjaminh

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Posted 11 June 2018 - 12:36 PM

Posaune, thank you very much for taking the time to clarify those things for me. Those many words cleared things up wonderfully.

 

I only am left with two question now: with the darts I currently have in the shirt back to reduce the width, the dart only goes to the waistline, then tapers to a point 10cm further down, to allow for the extra width needed for my hips. How will this work with the vertical cut method of reducing back width? Should I pivot the back outwards again after the waistline?

Secondly, do I first apply the change in shoulder angle that I did in post #13 to the paper pattern, before carrying out any of these modifications?

 

Thanks again,

Benjamin


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#18 posaune

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Posted 11 June 2018 - 06:30 PM

Yes I would.  And do it to the front pattern too. It is an alteration you have to do on every other upper garment.

When drafting a new pattern you go down at the back shoulder the same amount lower  (you have pinned out) so instead of par ex. 1 cm you put in 2 cm. If you measured the Rh its the value is right no chnaging. If you calulated it you add that amount .

 

After doing the alterations for your shoulder blades you can rotate the dart back into the armhole.

 

(The hip alteration: I do not know if the hip circ is included in the man's shirt draft.  If not measure it and if you want to wear the shirt over the trouser - take this measurement with trousers on.

Compare it with your hip line of the shirt.  Allow for some ease 3 cm (half pattern). The average difference which men have in the range of size 48-58  is about 8 cm more hip circ (Small size) than bust circ up to  5.5 (and with big sizes lesser)

a size 48  has bust 96 and hip 104 /  

bust/2 + shirt ease   = 48+5.5=  53.5

Hip/2= 52

you see that shirt would a bit tight over the hips.

 

If your hip measurement is more you can add at both sides at hip level. )

 

Yes you pivot out again. You draft from the Arm-Sideseam point down to the new found waist point  and from there back to the old hem point.

lg

posaune


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