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The Best of the 1960s


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#55 Schneidergott

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Posted 30 June 2010 - 05:22 PM

A while back I applied for a job at a David Saddler shop in Bremen. Although I was slender back in those days I had to jump 3 sizes to get a jacket that fit me.

That shop soon moved to a different, smaller and less expensive location, but went out of business soon after that! Same happened to Oviesse in Bremen!

When I visit Bremen or Hamburg I feel more and more "short", and I am 6'1"!

"Nur der ist Meister seiner Kunst, der immer sucht, das Gute zu verbessern und niemals glaubt, das Beste schon zu haben."
"Only he is a master of his art who always seeks to improve the good and never believes to have the best already"

http://www.dressedwell.net/ It's snarky, but fun.


#56 Nishijin

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Posted 30 June 2010 - 07:59 PM

A tailor friend of mine in Paris started recently a small RTW collection, which he designed and have made in Italy. His own taste is for body-hugging garments, but nevertheless, when you read the size printed on the cloths, you have to jump at least 2 sizes to have something fitting you. I've always heard that italian sizes are small, and you have to try at least one size bigger, if not more. So I too am very inclined to think that the "close-fitting italian style" is simply that they are smaller and cut cloths to their size, not for oversized americans.


By the way, Mad Men may be very fashionable now indeed, but I think this trend really started with Hedi Slimane at Dior...
http://www.paulgrassart.com

Clothes make the man. Naked people have little or no influence on society.
Mark Twain

#57 Schneidergott

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Posted 30 June 2010 - 09:28 PM

In Hamburg's town centre are several high class men's retailers which sell Brioni, Kiton, Attolini and such. Especially the Kiton jackets look very small and it made me wonder who in the north of Germany could possibly wear them. There are quite a lot of Italians in Hamburg, though, doing "Import/ Export" business.
And a lot of tourists staying in the 5 Star hotels in the vicinity.

I have a few original Rundschau patterns which were included in the magazine, and they offered 2 versions of the same suit, one for the "conservative" and another for the "youthful" customer. The "youthful" version is a bit tighter with more waist suppression.

I also found a few fashion drawings from a magazine called "Der modische Stil" dated from 1961 to 1964. It was published on behalf of a huge cloth merchant.

Since Signor carpu likes DB so much I'll start with those:

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"Nur der ist Meister seiner Kunst, der immer sucht, das Gute zu verbessern und niemals glaubt, das Beste schon zu haben."
"Only he is a master of his art who always seeks to improve the good and never believes to have the best already"

http://www.dressedwell.net/ It's snarky, but fun.


#58 carpu65

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Posted 01 July 2010 - 01:23 PM

I think the reason Americans think that Italian cuts are slim fitting is only because Italians are generally slimmer than Americans. As a result, ready made garments exported overseas feel like they are cut slim. In reality it is more a case of clothes not fitting properly. The same is true even for Armani, whose coat cut is classically very drapey - easy and soft, but only if it is worn by the figure for which it was intended!!!!

In Hamburg's town centre are several high class men's retailers which sell Brioni, Kiton, Attolini and such. Especially the Kiton jackets look very small and it made me wonder who in the north of Germany could possibly wear them.


Well this is strange.
If in 50s and 60s the Italian average height was relatively small (1,65) and the Americans were seen bigs,
now the last generations (from mid 60s to now) are tall.
A young man on four is now 1,8 0 (my height is 1,81 and im not very tall).

Edited by carpu65, 01 July 2010 - 01:27 PM.


#59 Sator

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Posted 01 July 2010 - 02:59 PM

Americans (and Brits, Australians etc) have been "growing" too. Mostly horizontally:

http://www.nationmas...-health-obesity

#60 Schneidergott

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Posted 01 July 2010 - 11:05 PM

I'm wondering if the Italian high-end RTW makers offer sizes for the corpulent customers. (Looking around here in Germany I'd say that the majority of men (and women :poke: ) are not in the best physical condition. In fact, according to a recent study about 60% of German population is overweight.
And even those who are not often have figures which may not fit into regular sized RTW).

Because if they don't, many men will wear what comes closest to their size, causing quite a few defects.

When was that Pirri DB made? It looks just as timeless as the Caraceni version!

"Nur der ist Meister seiner Kunst, der immer sucht, das Gute zu verbessern und niemals glaubt, das Beste schon zu haben."
"Only he is a master of his art who always seeks to improve the good and never believes to have the best already"

http://www.dressedwell.net/ It's snarky, but fun.


#61 carpu65

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Posted 02 July 2010 - 12:52 AM

I'm wondering if the Italian high-end RTW makers offer sizes for the corpulent customers. (Looking around here in Germany I'd say that the majority of men (and women :poke: ) are not in the best physical condition. In fact, according to a recent study about 60% of German population is overweight.

And in this situation the actual super-slim cut is absurd!


When was that Pirri DB made? It looks just as timeless as the Caraceni version!

In early 1964.
The best Italian suits of 60s were timeless.
Was a great period!
For Pirri (and others Sicilian tailors) look here:
http://irenebrinatio...ing-school.html

#62 carpu65

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Posted 02 July 2010 - 12:54 AM

Italian tailors schools in 60s:

http://www.cutterand...?showtopic=1371

#63 Schneidergott

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Posted 02 July 2010 - 02:09 AM

And in this situation the actual super-slim cut is absurd!



In early 1964.
The best Italian suits of 60s were timeless.
Was a great period!
For Pirri (and others Sicilian tailors) look here:
http://irenebrinatio...ing-school.html


Yes, that super slim cut is absurd, especially since not even the skinny models look good in it.
It seems that a lot of tailoring and cutting knowledge was lost since the 70's.
In an old Rundschau article it was said that shortly after the war about 65% of Italian men wore bespoke suits, which can be easily explained by the numbers of tailoring houses in existence during that time.

Yet at the time there were over 1,000 tailoring houses in the town (Catania), all of them producing quite beautiful suits.


In Germany are about 800 men's tailors registered today, many of them working in their niche of the trade, like making clerical robes.

In Bremen, which is the city my grandfather was born and the nearest larger place in vicinity of my hometown, were about 400 men's tailors after the war. I don't know how many there might be now, but the tailor I worked for there was the last one officially in business, and I think he retired 4 or 5 years ago. Bespoke orders were absolutely rare, I saw him doing one suit during those 2 years.

In other fora one often finds "sicilian tailoring" mentioned in posts, but none is specific enough to really explain what is so special about it.
From what I read in the article I figured that there was not only 1 Sicilian school in the sense of 1 line and 1 way to make suits, but, like in Napoli, quite a number of variations in terms of cut and structure.
(So, since Pirri was and is your family's tailor: What are his coats like? More on the structured or the softer side? Does he have a house style?)

I especially enjoyed the following bit:

Throughout the 50s and the 60s the Sicilian tailoring school developed and went from strength to strength.

The scene proved particularly interesting in Catania, where tailors often collaborated together, meeting in a sort of private club called Circolo Etneo dei Maestri Sarti.

Here they would relax, share tips and suggestions and plan catwalk shows and events.

It was indeed at the club that the tailors often organised in the early 60s the Festival Etneo d’Alta Moda, a sort of high fashion event supported by many Italian textile factories, aimed at showcasing designs created by the Catania, Messina and Syracuse tailors.


But I'm afraid the number of tailors in the towns and cities worldwide today is too small to revive this idea!

"Nur der ist Meister seiner Kunst, der immer sucht, das Gute zu verbessern und niemals glaubt, das Beste schon zu haben."
"Only he is a master of his art who always seeks to improve the good and never believes to have the best already"

http://www.dressedwell.net/ It's snarky, but fun.


#64 carpu65

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Posted 02 July 2010 - 05:08 AM

In an old Rundschau article it was said that shortly after the war about 65% of Italian men wore bespoke suits, which can be easily explained by the numbers of tailoring houses in existence during that time.

To be exact were 70% in 1966.
In an old 1966 number of "Panorama" magazine,the industry of ready to wear complained that without exportations would close.
"Italians are too much conservatives,go to the tailors..in the rest of the world people dress ready to wear"...
The fall come in 70s,with the damned counterculture the trojan horse of consumerism.
The last Italian tailors of today are the apprentices and the young tailors of 60s,and if are still many is because in 60s tailors were hundreds and hundreds.


(So, since Pirri was and is your family's tailor: What are his coats like? More on the structured or the softer side? Does he have a house style?)

Pirri was more structured than many Napolitan tailors,but soft if compare him to Caraceni.
His coats were very comfortables without make folds like,for exemple,those of Rubinacci-Attolini.
Pirri was specialist in dinner jackets,tail coats,morning coats and light summer suits.
The fabrics were only from UK,except the silk (shantung,tussor) that was Italian and the linen fron Ireland.
Tha silhouette changed a little with the years

Pirri was usually considered as a tailor and fashion designer with great technical skills

.

For exemple:
This at left is a DB coat cut in 1957,and this at right is cut in 1964.
You can see that the DB of 64 is more clean (but not "slim",off course).

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#65 Schneidergott

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Posted 02 July 2010 - 06:28 AM

There are a few fashion drawings showing the latest "styles", among them American- Italian ones (1962):

The title is a bit confusing and there are no hints to distinct whether these models are Italian versions following the American trend or that the models on the left are American and the ones on the right are Italian.

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The author pointed out the new shape of the front edges (quarters).

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A few more from 1961:

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Interesting here is the note that the Italian version is obviously quite tapered at the waist.
Is it known who actually created the chest pocket following the shape of the shoulders? I've seen them also on British coats.

This comes from 1962:

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"Nur der ist Meister seiner Kunst, der immer sucht, das Gute zu verbessern und niemals glaubt, das Beste schon zu haben."
"Only he is a master of his art who always seeks to improve the good and never believes to have the best already"

http://www.dressedwell.net/ It's snarky, but fun.


#66 Schneidergott

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Posted 02 July 2010 - 08:52 PM

In those magazines were also some colour photographs, showing German, French and British models:

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"Nur der ist Meister seiner Kunst, der immer sucht, das Gute zu verbessern und niemals glaubt, das Beste schon zu haben."
"Only he is a master of his art who always seeks to improve the good and never believes to have the best already"

http://www.dressedwell.net/ It's snarky, but fun.


#67 carpu65

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Posted 03 July 2010 - 12:23 AM

DB was beloved in Germany.
A question: in many German fashion pictures of 50s and 60s i have see a "British air" (bowlers,umbrellas,Edwardian cuts),and many German movies of 50s are set in England with English characters.
Was the old German Anglophilie that back after the war?

#68 Sator

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Posted 03 July 2010 - 12:48 AM

From DSHW August 1968 - single breasted lounges!

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#69 Schneidergott

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Posted 03 July 2010 - 01:55 AM

DB was beloved in Germany.
A question: in many German fashion pictures of 50s and 60s i have see a "British air" (bowlers,umbrellas,Edwardian cuts),and many German movies of 50s are set in England with English characters.
Was the old German Anglophilie that back after the war?



After the war, especially when the "Wirtschaftswunder" kicked in, Germans were crazy about everything foreign, especially Britain, USA and finally Italy. Along with Spain, Italy is still one of the favourite vacation countries.

The movies you are referring to are most likely the Edgar Wallace adaptations with a lot of iconic actors like Joachim Fuchsberger and Eddie Arendt.
Later on in the 50's they made an endless number of films in foreign locations, among those are Italy (I remember a fild called "Schick Deine Frau nicht nach Italien /Don't send your wife to Italy"). It were those films which established the image of Italian men being so much more charming than others. :give_rose:
Once on location they shot like 10 films in a row, mostly with the same actors and costumes.

Another famous singer/ actor in the time from 1950 to late 90's was Peter Alexander. Like so many other popular showstars of that time he was not German (Austrian): He did a lot of musical films, among them the Graf Bobby series:

This is Peter Alexander in 1961:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ktj_N_p0P9k&feature=related

Almost Napolitan jacket...

The Rock'n Roll was big, too, but was then replaced by beatles style music.

But here is a classic Italian cliché song:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DKROuOY7JJs&feature=related

The meaning of the texts are totally different. The original is about 2 Italian men from Napoli in Germany feeling homesick!

"Nur der ist Meister seiner Kunst, der immer sucht, das Gute zu verbessern und niemals glaubt, das Beste schon zu haben."
"Only he is a master of his art who always seeks to improve the good and never believes to have the best already"

http://www.dressedwell.net/ It's snarky, but fun.


#70 Sator

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Posted 03 July 2010 - 02:04 AM

Anglophilia in Germany is much older than that though. Nietzsche often dressed in tweeds to give himself the English country gentleman look:

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#71 Schneidergott

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Posted 03 July 2010 - 02:30 AM

On behalf of Italian cliché we were not the only ones:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rtmsIq0-T54&feature=related

In late 1959 the British came up with the Bell shape line in an attempt to regain territory lost to Italy::

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Which was answered by the Italians with "The new line"!

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Main aspects, according to this article, were the combination of the American column line, the Italian fashion of those days and a contribution to the British bell shape. The shoulders are high and narrow, the waist is tapered and the skirt is flaring out a bit.

Like the British, the Italian version omitted the lower button, but the coats were cut longer.

There is a simple reason for the German anglophilia: The strong ties between the members of the royal families of both countries.

"Nur der ist Meister seiner Kunst, der immer sucht, das Gute zu verbessern und niemals glaubt, das Beste schon zu haben."
"Only he is a master of his art who always seeks to improve the good and never believes to have the best already"

http://www.dressedwell.net/ It's snarky, but fun.


#72 carpu65

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Posted 03 July 2010 - 01:02 PM

And off course the comune anglo-saxon heritage..
"Linea nuova" seems the "Linea alta" of 1957 (that had all the 3 buttons).
Which is the year of the fashion sketch?




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