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Selig Brothers "Correct Dress Chart" 1928


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#1 Gravenimages

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Posted 11 February 2010 - 04:53 AM

In case anyone at C&T doesn't slum in other forums (where I X posted this) I offer it here as well:

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Also, I posted 15 more enlargeable images here: http://sartoriana.wo...-brothers-1928/
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#2 Der Zuschneider

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Posted 11 February 2010 - 06:32 AM

How much?

Schneidern heisst, viel Wissen, viel Arbeit und keine Kohle im Sack, dafuer aber viele Kunden, die alles besser wissen.  :Big Grin:


#3 Gravenimages

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Posted 11 February 2010 - 07:18 AM

Oh, I just meant offering the photos as in sharing them. The book isn't mine to sell. It wish it was.

How much?



#4 Der Zuschneider

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Posted 11 February 2010 - 09:19 AM

And I went already to the bank counting money to buy it... :)

Schneidern heisst, viel Wissen, viel Arbeit und keine Kohle im Sack, dafuer aber viele Kunden, die alles besser wissen.  :Big Grin:


#5 PocketTriangle

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Posted 11 February 2010 - 11:00 AM

Nice. Interesting to compare to this:

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And observe the changes, e.g. cutaways no longer being used for businesswear and instead an alternative to the frock coat for formal occaisons.

Another stray observations: 1902 dress code says a black (DB) waistcoat may be worn with white tie and matching waistcoat must be worn with black tie. 1928 dress code only says that a white waistcoat can be worn with white tie and explicitly prohibits a white waistcoat from being worn with black tie. Nowadays, dark waistcoats are considered acceptable with white tie and white waistcoats with black tie. Now sure when the change occurred, some time around the 50s I think.

Will try to post a more systematic and coherent analysis later.

#6 Sator

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Posted 11 February 2010 - 11:10 AM

I think that is my own scan that someone has subsequently uploaded to Wiki. It comes from the book The Cut of his Coat by Brent Shannon. The journal Fashion from London was regarded as the most authoritative journal of its kind in its day. I own quite a few of these dress charts, English, German and American.

The most recent equivalent of this has been posted here, although it is not a chart. It is much more modern and probably still of some relevance.

I sometimes wonder what a modern dress chart would look like. In fact, I shudder at the thought...
Gustav Mahler (1860-1911): "Tradition ist die Weitergabe des Feuers und nicht die Anbetung der Asche."

"Tradition is about passing on the flame, and not the worshipping of ashes"

#7 Sator

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Posted 11 February 2010 - 11:15 AM

Nowadays, dark waistcoats are considered acceptable with white tie and white waistcoats with black tie.


Actually, black dress waistcoats for full dress are old fashioned. Some time around the 1920s-30s this became a form of livery to mark out the catering staff from the guests.
Gustav Mahler (1860-1911): "Tradition ist die Weitergabe des Feuers und nicht die Anbetung der Asche."

"Tradition is about passing on the flame, and not the worshipping of ashes"

#8 Kerry

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Posted 11 February 2010 - 12:09 PM

I sometimes wonder what a modern dress chart would look like. In fact, I shudder at the thought...


This comes from one of those (silly) books you get at the counter at the bookstore/newsagent. A Well Dressed Gentleman's Pocket Guide by Oscar Lenius. It was published in 1998.

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#9 Sator

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Posted 11 February 2010 - 12:30 PM

^ that looks American. Apart from the use of the British English "turn-ups" all the terms are American English eg notched/peak lapels, cutaway coat, Glen check. Americans almost never wear morning coats these days, so that is unlikely to be a modern dress chart but a reprint of something from around the 1940-60s. A more contemporary chart would have categories like "business casual", and "smart casual".
Gustav Mahler (1860-1911): "Tradition ist die Weitergabe des Feuers und nicht die Anbetung der Asche."

"Tradition is about passing on the flame, and not the worshipping of ashes"

#10 Kerry

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Posted 11 February 2010 - 01:12 PM

I forgot to add this one, from the same book.
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Neither chart is given any credit to the origins. The author of the book is German but it was published in London. I suspect, being a "gift" book that it is a mish-mash of a lot of different sources and therefore a generalised overview. having said that, if after reading it, a man starts his satorial journey because of it, then great. More jobs for us!Posted Image

#11 Nicolaus

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Posted 11 February 2010 - 03:06 PM

The one thing I noticed is that it is 1928 and there's no mention of pleated trousers. Though, there are some pretty baggy "peg top" trousers for those who like the drape look. Does anyone know when pleated trousers came to be?

#12 Sator

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Posted 11 February 2010 - 06:39 PM

Pleated trousers are neither more or less formal, neither suitable more for day or evening. They first appeared in the nineteenth century as baggy Cossack trousers:

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They then make a come back in the 1930s in the modern form. Pleated trousers fitted with the 1930s trend towards a more loosely fitted and often draped style of cutting. Whether one likes pleated trousers or not depends mostly on whether one prefers a fitted cut or not. That is, it is a question of taste rather than of correctness.
Gustav Mahler (1860-1911): "Tradition ist die Weitergabe des Feuers und nicht die Anbetung der Asche."

"Tradition is about passing on the flame, and not the worshipping of ashes"

#13 Sator

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Posted 11 February 2010 - 07:21 PM

Neither chart is given any credit to the origins. The author of the book is German but it was published in London.


It sounds even more American eg French cuffs instead of double cuffs. British dress charts from 1900-1950 are a bit different to German and American dress charts, the latter two being quite similar, perhaps because a lot of American tailors were Central European migrants, many of whom were Jewish.
Gustav Mahler (1860-1911): "Tradition ist die Weitergabe des Feuers und nicht die Anbetung der Asche."

"Tradition is about passing on the flame, and not the worshipping of ashes"

#14 Der Zuschneider

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Posted 12 February 2010 - 07:44 AM

Cannot someone with resources create an valid dress chart in Excel for our Generation without mixing American/French/English styles, but with regard of change from 1900.
Maybe someone published some chart already in some book?

Schneidern heisst, viel Wissen, viel Arbeit und keine Kohle im Sack, dafuer aber viele Kunden, die alles besser wissen.  :Big Grin:


#15 Sator

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Posted 12 February 2010 - 08:30 AM

That would be hard. People don't really dress for occasions any more. Actually people don't dress at all. You even see people wandering around in pyjamas. It's more a case of what attire can be worn rather than what has to be worn. It's less prescriptive these days.

I can suggest categories for discussion:

DAYTIME DRESS
1. Formal dress: morning dress. The easy bit. Traditional and codified.
2. Semi-formal Dress?: city lounge suit + tie
3. Informal dress: sports/country suits, or sports coat +/- tie
4. Smart Casual dress (including business casual)
5. Casual dress ... :rolleyes:

EVENING DRESS
1. Formal dress - white tie. Easy
2. Formal dinner dress - formal black tie
3. Informal dinner dress - informal black tie or city lounge suit
4. Smart casual dress???: sports coats +/- tie
5. Casual dress ... :pinch:

It's very hard, and these categories are quite arbitrary. My natural inclination is to say that lounge suits are good casual attire and that you should wear them every time you go out to dinner, to the supermarket and, of course, the beach. Heck, I turn up to barbeques wearing a sports jacket and tie eg cream or pink sports jacket, colourful bow tie, Panama hat, co-respondent shoes :) I would gladly wear a tan coloured cotton sports suit for lunch at the beach.

So bring the discussion on. I know that some of you, even the tailors, will say that we have to keep up with the times, blah blah. That we would be laughed at if you insist on wearing suits or tails all the time blah blah. Personally, I think it is important to try to regain the penetration of tailored garments into a larger proportion of daily activities. In the past, a man could wear tailored garments morning, noon, and night and not appeared overdressed. Today, a lot of younger people feel alienated from all tailored clothing which they regard as archaic ceremonial attire for extraordinary occasions only. This means finding the right sort of tailored garments for casual wear rather than prescriptive insistence that morning coats are equestrian sports coats to be worn at the beach.
Gustav Mahler (1860-1911): "Tradition ist die Weitergabe des Feuers und nicht die Anbetung der Asche."

"Tradition is about passing on the flame, and not the worshipping of ashes"

#16 Sator

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Posted 12 February 2010 - 08:42 AM

Here is Edward VII, when he was still Prince of Wales. He is out skating in his morning coat, which was regarded as a sports coat then: 'dressy without being formal':

Posted Image

No, I don't intend to put morning coats down on the modern chart as casual sporting attire. :Big Grin:
Gustav Mahler (1860-1911): "Tradition ist die Weitergabe des Feuers und nicht die Anbetung der Asche."

"Tradition is about passing on the flame, and not the worshipping of ashes"

#17 PocketTriangle

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Posted 12 February 2010 - 08:59 AM

Actually, black dress waistcoats for full dress are old fashioned. Some time around the 1920s-30s this became a form of livery to mark out the catering staff from the guests.


I stand corrected. I thought it was acceptable because the Duke of Windsor had done it (yeah, I know, "the Duke of Windsor did it" is not a very good reason for doing something), but, after poking around a bit, I have observed that the DoW started wearing a white waistcoat at some point.

#18 Sator

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Posted 12 February 2010 - 09:30 AM

Maybe someone published some chart already in some book?


BTW modern books by fashion writers will have you wearing a sequined dinner jacket with jeans and running shoes in the middle of the day.
Gustav Mahler (1860-1911): "Tradition ist die Weitergabe des Feuers und nicht die Anbetung der Asche."

"Tradition is about passing on the flame, and not the worshipping of ashes"




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