[Sator]

Wedding Attire

I thought it is about time to write my own views on correct and elegant wedding attire.

The most important determinant of how a man should dress is the overall level of formality of the wedding, which will either be formal or informal. The thing that sets the tone of the formality will generally be what the bride chooses to wear, as she is likely to have the strongest views on the matter.

Part I: Formal Wedding Daywear

This usually means that the bride is wearing a formal bridal dress. This will usually have a full-length skirt. It may have a train or even a bustle, which are very old fashioned but highly formal features on a dress.

A potential bride or groom must understand that the only masculine garment that can match such a gown in formality is a coat with tails. Tails are the equivalent of a train or bustle on a dress. That is to say lounge suits (“business suit” in American English) are the equivalent of an informal fashion dress and to wear it alongside a formal wedding gown is an odd mismatch that should be avoided. In most cases this means that the groom should wear formal morning dress, which is worn for all daytime ceremonies. The cut-off time after which morning dress should be replaced by evening dress is dependent on time of year. In summer, where it remains bright longer, it may be worn until a little later. In winter the “evening” arrives a little earlier.

If the guests are to be in formal morning dress as well, this should be clearly stated on the invitation: "formal morning dress".

For evening festivities after a daytime ceremony the groom must change into evening dress. Only if a daytime reception happens to spill over into the evening hours is it permissible to remain in daywear.

Formal Festive Morning Dress

Modern formal festive morning dress consists of a morning coat, waistcoat and striped trousers.



Formal morning dress looks like this up close:



The only problem I have with it is that the waistcoat is obviously ready to wear. It fits and coordinates poorly with the coat, being too long and buttoning up too high relative to the coat. Too much waistcoat protrudes above and below the coat. More on this later.

The following art deco period fashion plate shows a much more ideal fit of a body coat, and matching waistcoat:



The waistcoat peeks out only subtly above and below the coat. The morning coat finishes well above the knees. The coat closely follows the figure of the wearer. Trousers in this period started to get somewhat fuller in cut, and modern morning trousers may be cut slimmer according to taste.

The Coat

The main features of the typical modern formal morning coat (cutaway coat in American English) are that it closes with only one button, and the lapels are pointed. The cloth is made of worsted cloth in either black or dark grey. The cloth may have a subtle self-pattern in it to give it interest such as a fine herringbone pattern, as you can see in the above example. Oxford grey is a particularly beautiful choice. This is woven with 90-95% black threads and 5-10% white threads to give a fine salt-and-pepper finish seen from up close. From a distance it may look black.

A morning coat should ideally be bespoke (custom made in American English). Tailors call coats of this type, “body coats”, and they are less suitable to be made up as a ready to wear garment because they need to be fitted much more carefully. They are designed to be fitted cleanly to the “body” of the wearer, so as to show off his figure. Younger men with good figures tend to look the best in body coats. Here is what a body coat looks like from behind:



The coat should cleanly follow the line of the hollow of the back and waist. The way the seams fall on a body coat is designed to allow the tailor to shape a beautifully sculpted back. A body coat is a work of art, and only the finest tailors are able to make them. It is traditionally regarded as the ultimate test of a tailor’s ability.

While the modern morning coat is usually a single button pointed lapel model, there are other variants that are permissible. Most of these are somewhat old fashioned, but you may find them on quality heirloom and vintage garments. The following fashion plate shows some fine examples of such variants:



The figure on the right wears a morning coat with a step lapel (notched lapel in American English), so called because it is shaped like a step. The figure on the left wears a two-button model with pointed lapels. Of particular note on this coat is that the length of these two coats is absolutely ideal, and all three figures wear waistcoats that only show subtly above or below their coats. A morning coat also looks more elegant when it is shorter and can be as much as 2-3 inches above the knees. It looks more youthful and dashing to have a morning coat a bit too short than too long, as this causes the garment to look frumpy. If you also look closely at the figure on the right, he also has his coat specially cut so that it closes with links rather than with a button. Links are made with two cloth-covered buttons joined by a chain:



The figure in the middle is wear an old fashioned type of formal coat for morning wear called a frock coat, also called a Prince Albert after the consort to Queen Victoria. It is double breasted and has a silk facing to the revers, which you can see on this beautiful example from the film Kind Hearts and Coronets:



It is a rather grand and stately coat that sadly went out of fashion in the art deco period. If you have a beautiful bespoke, heirloom or vintage piece that fits you perfectly, a frock coat can still add an eloquent vintage touch to your wedding if that is what you choose. Avoid modern oddities that lack the horizontal seam that runs around the waist, as these are not even body coats and tend to look shapeless and frumpy. These strange mutants are not actually frock coats at all, even though cheap rental places may call them that.

One interesting tradition is that morning coats do not take silk faced revers. However, it is traditional for a morning coat to be made up with silk braiding around the edges:



Note the single button closure with links rather than a button. Prince Charles had his coat made up this way with braiding (but without the link closure) for his wedding:



One final variant worth mentioning is the grey morning suit. The suit is made up with a pearl grey coat with matching waistcoat and trousers:



This is worn on festive occasions only, especially in warmer weather. If the groom wears a light grey morning suit, other men should wear dark coloured morning coats. (Incidentally, the fit of the POW's baggy suit leaves much to be desired, although the idea of it remains a fine one.)

Finally, for those unable to bespeak a morning coat, a ready to wear coat may be altered to fit better. However, altering a morning coat is a much more complex affair compared to lounge coats (business suit jacket in American English). A proper alteration may be quite expensive, and only a very good tailor should be entrusted with the work.

The Waistcoat

It is actually very difficult to correctly coordinate the waistcoat to the coat. The only way to get this absolutely right is have them both made up by a bespoke tailor (custom tailor in American English). A great deal of freedom is permitted with waistcoats for morning wear. It can be single breasted, or double breasted of a cloth matching the coat, of light cashmere, worsted, silk, or washing fabric (linen or cotton) in cream, white, dove grey, lavender, biscuit, or buff.

Great care should be taken to match the length of a single-breasted waistcoat to that of the coat front. Prince Philip’s tailor has got this absolutely perfect here:



Notice that the double points on the waistcoat peak out a little below the coat. If the waistcoat has a single point at the front, take care that it does not protrude out too much at the bottom. Waistcoats that are cut perfectly horizontally at the bottom can look bland, as though it were a ready to wear garment, but this is more a matter of taste than of proscribed “correctness”.

The waistcoat should also only show a little above the buttoned up coat. A waistcoat that protrudes excessively above and below the coat looks harmonises poorly with the coat, and it is a dead give away that the wearer's morning dress is a haphazard collection of ready to wear separates.

Some say that a single-breasted daywear city waistcoat should be lapelless but some thought needs to occurs as to how rigidly such a rule should be followed, as it was not always universally followed in the past. Here, the great dandy Count D’Orsay wears a single-breasted waistcoat with the morning dress of his day. It has roll collars and a bottom with a single point to elongate the figure:



Double-breasted waistcoats can also look elegant. These can be made with either a single or double point at the bottom. A semi-U shaped lapel can look particularly elegant on either a single or double-breasted waistcoat. All of these variants are entirely a matter of individual preference, and a certain amount of tasteful fantasy gives the waistcoat a sense of individuality that sets it apart from rental and ready to wear garments:



The above centre figure wears a slipped waistcoat with striped trousers for morning wear. Apart from the waistcoats shown at 7, 10 and 11 o'clock, all styles are suitable with morning dress.

The slipped waistcoat. If you look carefully at this close up of the Prince Charles you will clearly see what looks like a second waistcoat underneath it peaking out from under it:



This is known as a slipped waistcoat. The slip is a piece of cloth that is attached underneath, at the top of waistcoat. It is thought to be remnant of the Regency era practice of wearing an underwaistcoat beneath the waistcoat.


Trousers

The trousers must also coordinate in their fit and cut with the rest of the ensemble. The cloth design for festive occasions is a striped or checked cashmere design. "Cashmere" refers to the design of the pattern rather than the fibres in the cloth. The designs are of a strong black-and-white design, and any old pinstriped trousers in the wardrobe will not do. Alternatives include other black and white dress trousering such as cheviots, houndstooth, shepherd’s check and other similar designs. However, other than houndstooth these classical checked dressing trousering designs are as rare as these days as hen’s teeth - unless you have them specially woven for you. However, H Lesser, Harrison’s of Edinburgh and Holland & Sherry do offer a reasonable range of classical striped trouserings.

This is what striped trousering in a cashmere design looks like up close:



Matching black trousers are best kept reserved in case of a funeral. A suit with matching black morning coat, waistcoat and trousers is called a “mourning suit”.

The most classical trouser fit to match a beautifully fitted body coat is arguably a pair with a slim cut. Rather baggy trousers became an unfortunate fad from about the 1930s onwards, and you can see that Prince Philip is wearing a rather full cut on those trousers in the above picture. He has recently had his old trousers recut by his tailor to slim them down. A slim fitting pair of trouser is a better-balanced match for the clean fitted look of a body coat. The trousers need not be as keenly fitted as those worn by Count D’Orsay, but enough to provide a clean silhouette from top to bottom. If trousers were baggy mid-20th century, then in the mid-1800s, in the Count’s day, trousers were quite tight fitting, but in between these periods trousers were modestly slim fitting like this:



This particularly looks both unexaggeratedly classical, as well as fashionable on younger grooms with fine figures. The trousers can be flat fronted, as in the above Edwardian example, or pleated according to taste. Pleated trousers (single or double, forward or reverse) came in around the 1930s when a baggier cut become fashionable, as the pleats tend to add fullness. Full pleats (especially double pleats) tend to poke out from under the cut away fronts of a morning coat, whereas lounge coats better hide them.

Trousers are best made up as brace trousers. The main reason for this is to allow the trousers to be cut with a higher rise to avoid the trouser waistband from peaking out from underneath the waistcoat bottoms. The waistcoat can then be finished shorter to give the illusion of a longer leg line. The braces (suspenders in American English) also pull on the trouser leg line, holding them straight and erect, further lengthening the leg line to add to the illusion of height. Belt trousers tend to sag and wrinkle more, no matter how tightly you do up the belt. Alligator styled clip on braces damage trousers and should be avoided at all cost. This is what brace trousers look like:



Trouser hems should be finished plain without turn ups (cuffs in American Englis).

The Shirt

The shirt should ideally be plain white or white with self-stripes. Coloured shirts are sometimes seen today, with contrasting white detachable collars. Those who find a plain white to be too harsh for their complexions in daylight should consider ecru to soften things out. Otherwise, an understated grey striped shirt or a pale blue shirt is considered acceptable.

The collar should be a white, detachable stiffly starched collar. The tunic shirt should not have a bib such as those found on evening shirts, nor should it show studs. However, it should close with cufflinks. Currently, it is most usual to wear a turn down cutaway collar. Although rather old fashioned today, stand up collars, whether winged or imperial, may also be worn, provided they are detachable. The height of the collar should be proportionate to the neck of the wearer. Men with thicker, shorter necks should stick to turn down collars.

The shirt should a plain front and without a "bib" of the sort found on evening shirts (which are starched and made of either plain or piqué).

Neckwear

The tie is usually a four in hand (although some will prefer a Prince Albert or even semi-Windsor, the ungainly full Windsor should be strictly avoided), especially with a turn down collar. However, a four in hand may be correctly worn with a stand up collar, though this again is old fashioned. The tie should be grey or a strong black-and-white design, either in a small pattern or stripes.

An old fashioned, though still elegant alternative is the Ascot tie. However, proper Ascot ties are as rare as hen’s teeth these days. Because day cravats are incorrectly called “Ascots” in American English, most of the time something is purported to be an “Ascot” it turns out to be nothing more than a day cravat, which is often made of lighter silks and without any interlining to give it formal structure.

This is an Ascot tie:



This is a day cravat:


These are two totally different garments. Please don’t get them confused. Pre-tied rental Ascot ties should be strictly avoided. The only way to get hold of a proper Ascot tie is to bespeak one of a good maker. Ascot ties are usually worn with a stand up collar, and finished off with a cravat pin. This is how they are tied:



Here is Sir Anthony Eden getting married wearing an Ascot tie and a winged collar:



Notice the step lapels on his coat.

Bow ties are another old-fashioned alternative. I see no reason why they should not be considered a valid modern alternative, even if it may be seen as being a little eccentric. The designs should again be grey or a black-and-white small design or stripes.

With any sort of neckwear, if colour is introduced to the waistcoat, the neckwear should become plainer by way of balance. If colour is to be introduced, it should be done so very discretely. Busy and colourful silk designs tend to ruin the understated masculine elegance of morning dress.

Footwear

There are two types of Oxford shoes that are classically worn. These are plain black calf skin Oxford shoes with a plain toe cap, or punch caps (a single row of punching across the caps).

Plain cap toe Oxfords:



Punch caps:



However, a number of small variations are permissible. The following are a couple of such examples.

This is a plain toed Oxford (there is no toe cap) with a medallion:



Next, is a type of Oxford known as an Adelaide, with the typical U shaped row of punching around the laces:



All of the above Oxford shoes are bespoke shoes made by Koji Suzuki.

Alternatively, dress boots with contrasting tops (cloth is traditional and more comfortable) such as button boots and Oxford boots are also very traditional, if old fashioned. The uppers are traditionally made of grey or tan cloth.

Galosh lace up Oxford boots:



Button boots from Parisian bootmaker Dimitri Gomez:



Spats were only fashionable for a limited period of time. They represent a fleeting fashion in the history of morning dress, and were often thought affected. Wear them only if you really want a vintage feel to the wedding attire. Galosh Oxfords with light coloured contrasting uppers also tend to look like spats. The disadvantage is that they tend to disrupt the continuity from trouser hem to shoe and make the legs looks a little shorter. This should be kept in mind when ordering such boots.

Socks

Silk or cashmere is traditional. However, many modern ultrafine cotton, or even wool socks can be just as elegant. The colour should be black, or dark grey with a subtle self-pattern. If cloth topped boots are worn, the socks should match the colour of the uppers. The socks should preferably be knee length.


Hat

Black silk top hat. A light grey Ascot shaped topper may be worn in summer with a light grey morning suit.

The top hat should be non-collapsible. Collapsible toppers (called a chapeau claque in Europe) are for evening dress only. The silk used for top hats is not longer made and the looms were destroyed. If a proper vintage silk topper is unavailable (restored vintage ones can be expensive) then a well made felt top hat is acceptable.

Gloves

Should match other accessories. Usual colours include white, pale yellow, biscuit, or shades of grey suede. The Count D'Orsay is described as wearing lemon chamois gloves and these can still be purchased from Pickett in Burlington Arcade, London. Gloves should be bespoke so as to fit smartly and discretely rather than being baggy like workman's safety gloves. Black gloves should be avoided.

Boutonniere

A small white flower should be chosen. The flower should be passed through the button hole of the lapel. Better coats also have a boutonniere loop behind them so as to hold the flower secure.

If a flower (or worse still a busy bouquet with stems, leaves etc) is pinned onto the coat, it is a dead give away that the coat is a cheap rental garment, where the coat has a sham lapel buttonhole that will not permit a flower to be passed through it.

Handkerchief

A coat with a chest pocket should be finished with a white handkerchief of linen.

Watch

The best option is to have a watch chain of gold or silver and a pocket watch - preferably heirloom or vintage:



Count D'Orsay is said to have worn "yards and yards" of gold chain. The best type of chain is a double-ended Albert chain. One end takes the watch, and the other end takes a fob. The two ends are placed in the pockets to the left and right of the waistcoat. The waistcoat may have a special fob hole designed to take a fob chain.




On a double-breasted waistcoat it may be worn like this if the tailor has provided you the proper fob hole in the middle:



Notice the extra shield shaped fob in the middle of the Albert chain.

If you really must wear a wristwatch then make sure it is a dress watch and not a sports watch (eg diver's watch, chronograph etc). Dress watches have plain indices or Roman numerals, and are discrete in size rather than the busy oversized monsters currently fashionable. They may have a small seconds, but not a large second's hand. The face should be white. The band should be black leather and not brown or metal. The colour of the metal should preferably match that of the watch chain and cuff links. Here are some examples of classical dress watches:





Overcoat

If worn, this should be a Chesterfield overcoat in navy, dark grey or black. A Chesterfield may be single breasted with concealed buttonholes or double breasted, like this example:



For more on the Chesterfield see this thread:

http://www.cutterandtailor.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=61

A rather old fashioned alternative for fanatics is the Albert top frock. For more on this garment see this thread:

http://www.cutterandtailor.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=47

Bibliography

Devereaux: Etiquette for Men, London, 1929
Barney, S: Clothes and the Man, London, 1951
Storey, Nicholas: History of Men's Fashion, Barnsley, 2008
Whife (ed) The Modern Tailor Outfitter and Clothier, London, 1949

[NJS]

Nice summary Sator, if I may say so! Might I just mention a point of detail on the button boots/shoes. Often they are called 'galosh-topped' by the London bespoke makers and the pair of such shoes that I had made have dusty mid-grey buckskin (more likely 'nubuck' tops) and include a central seam, pointing towards the centre of the vamp. The tops are secured by small, rivetted MOP buttons which are brought into place by the use of a button-hook, inserted through the buttonholes (which are just unstitched slits). They are so tight that the fitter shattered a top button on one of them, securing them on my feet (no doubt there was a fault in the shell). Despite this obvious tightness, they are very comfortable but the very tightness would be absent if they were topped in cloth or canvass. But I accept that they sometimes were made with these other materials. The amazing thing about my shoes is that, despite the lack of any reinforcement around the buttonholes and the tightness, there is no sign of any stretch or incipient tear anywhere on the tops and there is absoultely no 'gappiness' at all. But I can wiggle my toes...

[pbc]

Another excellent article, Sator. I have some questions on a few of the items mentioned.

Collar:
I believe traditional collars for suits have ranged from open at the throat with no wings to tiny tabs bent forward to full wings similar to evening wear. Those on Sir Anthony Eden look substantial but not as large as for evening collars. Does morning wear accommodate the same wing variation as suits? Should the wings with morning wear be as "bold" as with evening wear?

Shirt:
Are shirt studs forbidden for morning wear with a bow tie? I've seen movie costumes include a studded shirt with a smart suit, but don't know if this is historically accurate.

Trousers:
I understand that cuffs or turn ups should not be found on morning trousers; plain hem only.

The following may perhaps be best addressed in a different thread, but I typically only see them mentioned in wedding posts so I will list them here.

Morning coat:
Historically, have morning coats (not necessarily as formal wear) ever used other colors? At the beginning of the 1952 production of The Importance of Being Earnest Algernon had a very nice cutaway body coat in a brown and white check. He was in the city but apparently lounging. It looked good but I don't know if this was correct.

Morning suit:
What is the history on morning suits? I've found very little about them but they would appear to have been suited to (no pun intended) lounge or later to business/informal wear.

pbc

[Sator]

NJS, on 06 May 2009 - 06:08 AM, said:

Nice summary Sator, if I may say so! Might I just mention a point of detail on the button boots/shoes. Often they are called 'galosh-topped' by the London bespoke makers and the pair of such shoes that I had made have dusty mid-grey buckskin (more likely 'nubuck' tops) and include a central seam, pointing towards the centre of the vamp.

Yes, this is how my tops are made up. Maftei in Vienna said that this was the traditional way of doing it. I think the main thing is to have the galosh top made of a softer material for greater comfort. We fuss over formal protocols too much sometimes. What really matters is that the soft tops add comfort. Men have always been pragmatic creatures at heart. However, Bridgland/Whife in the referenced text calls them button boots with cloth or tan tops. So I merely repeated that. I have noticed that John Lobb St James also calls them galosh Oxfords.

I should probably repeat, lest someone state that I have rigidly proscribed the wearing of button boots, that gaslosh Oxford boots are a nice, traditional touch for enthusiasts. Generally, Oxford shoes are much more readily available and are perfectly fine.

Also here is another very nice illustration of classical formal morning dress being worn at a wedding:

[Sator]

Here is a fine example of a morning suit in dove grey from the James Sherwood exhibition:

[Charles R Bingley]

Sator, on 06 May 2009 - 04:30 AM, said:

Gloves

Should match other accessories. Usual colours include white, pale yellow, biscuit, or shades of grey suede. The Count D'Orsay is described as wearing lemon chamois gloves and these can still be purchased from Pickett in Burlington Arcade, London. Gloves should be bespoke so as to fit smartly and discretely rather than being baggy like workman's safety gloves. Black gloves should be avoided.

Do note that Pickett's do not stock the lemon chamois gloves anymore. I think Budd's do (I spotted a pair in their window display). Another source is Chester Jefferies (MTO or bespoke on request).

[Floatinjoe]

I am about to commission bespoke “formal festive morning dress”, but have a few questions.

When the jacket closes with a link rather than a button, are the sides symmetrical to allow for a clean image since they don't need to overlap for a button closure? Basically, what I’m asking is, does this need to be part of the initial design, or can the button be removed later and another button hole added? Also, what exactly is the link chain made of? If I am wearing the coat without it closed, should I remove the links?

In my readings, I have found that black is the correct color for the groom (and also the most versatile for usage at other events). Is this correct, or should I be looking at a dark or Oxford grey? Is the subtle self-pattern something I should be looking for?

I realize that silk braiding on the edges is traditional, but how common is it? I have only seen a few images of it.

What is the best way to determine the length of the jacket? I am planning on having it end just above the crease of the knee (maybe an inch or two). I am 69-inches (175.25 cm) tall.

In looking at the waistcoats, I am particularly fond of the double-breasted one at the 4 o’clock position in the image above. Originally I was going to seek a straight horizontal bottom, but I like the slight curve of this one. Where can I find more images like this to make a better educated decision?

In regards to the trousers, I have read that forward pleats are more correct than reverse pleats. I don’t have much experience with forward pleats, but I have been told that they do make for a cleaner line (especially on the leg’s crease). Is this a correct statement? I would like to look as good as I can.

Any advice or insight to the above questions and comments is appreciated.

Mike

This post has been edited by Floatinjoe: 04 November 2009 - 04:48 AM

[J. Maclochlainn]

Sator, on 06 May 2009 - 04:30 AM, said:

Sator, who makes these?

This post has been edited by J. Maclochlainn: 04 November 2009 - 06:23 AM

[PocketTriangle]

Floatinjoe, on 04 November 2009 - 04:45 AM, said:

I am about to commission bespoke "formal festive morning dress", but have a few questions.

When the jacket closes with a link rather than a button, are the sides symmetrical to allow for a clean image since they don't need to overlap for a button closure? Basically, what I'm asking is, does this need to be part of the initial design, or can the button be removed later and another button hole added? Also, what exactly is the link chain made of? If I am wearing the coat without it closed, should I remove the links?

I can only speak from my personal experience, but on my tailcoat, there is one buttonhole. The other quarter of the coat has two buttons, one "normal" button and another one, attached to the inside of the quarter by a long, thick thread. This allows it to be either buttoned in either the normal way or in the more symmetrical button link way.

Quote

In my readings, I have found that black is the correct color for the groom (and also the most versatile for usage at other events). Is this correct, or should I be looking at a dark or Oxford grey? Is the subtle self-pattern something I should be looking for?

I would think that black is the most traditional and most versatile: no one can object if your morning coat is black. However, unless you're at a funeral, it's hard to object to grey. Black is the most serious and, as it provides the best contrast with the bride's dress, I would recommend it for a groom; but then again, a wedding is not a funeral but a festive event, and I think there's nothing wrong with getting married in a grey tailcoat. With regards to self patterns: in History of Men's Fashion, Nicholas Storey recommends black herringbone, and I am inclined to agree.

Quote

I realize that silk braiding on the edges is traditional, but how common is it? I have only seen a few images of it.

Well, tailcoats are quite rare these days, so it's hard to say how much rarer ones with silk braiding are. Anyway, it doesn't matter what's common and what isn't. Go for what you would like and think would be appropriate. Silk braiding makes the tailcoat a bit less formal, but it's a subtle distinction.

Quote

What is the best way to determine the length of the jacket? I am planning on having it end just above the crease of the knee (maybe an inch or two). I am 69-inches (175.25 cm) tall.

That sounds about right. The tails should never go below the knees; tails ending slightly above the knees create a bit of a dashing effect.

Quote

In looking at the waistcoats, I am particularly fond of the double-breasted one at the 4 o'clock position in the image above. Originally I was going to seek a straight horizontal bottom, but I like the slight curve of this one. Where can I find more images like this to make a better educated decision?

Hmmm....google images, clothing blogs, clothing catalogs and stores (e.g. Ede and Ravenscroft), Sator's posts . It takes a while to get an eye for these things.
EDIT: Here is a good book, full of images of not just waistcoats but also suits, tailcoats, etc., etc. It's practically my style bible: http://www.amazon.co...57281614&sr=8-2

Quote

In regards to the trousers, I have read that forward pleats are more correct than reverse pleats. I don't have much experience with forward pleats, but I have been told that they do make for a cleaner line (especially on the leg's crease). Is this a correct statement? I would like to look as good as I can.

I honestly don't know! I think the answer might depend on your body shape and personal preferences.

This post has been edited by PocketTriangle: 04 November 2009 - 05:54 AM

[Sator]

J. Maclochlainn, on 04 November 2009 - 05:16 AM, said:

Sator, who makes these?

They are Edward Greens - made to order. The model is the Shannon. The tops above the balmoral seams have been made with black suede.

[Sator]

A coat that closes with links is cut differently to a conventional coat. Once cut and made up that way, it usually cannot be changed if there has to be two buttonholes to allow the link to pass through both side. At least, that is what most cutting texts show you how to cut this style. The links can be made from horn buttons that have been joined, or you could perhaps have jewelery specially made to close the front eg of black mother of pearl.

As for colour, black or Oxford grey (95% black + 5% white yarns) are traditional. Any shade of grey lighter than that is generally used for morning suits with matching waistcoat and trousers. However, it is really up to you and your personal preference should dictate matters. I agree that a herringbone weave adds interest.

Silk braiding is rare mostly because it takes extra time and effort to put it in. It will push up the price of the garment for this reason. However, it does look wonderful for a festive occasion. It would be too fancy and festive for a funeral. Traditionally you are also meant to wear matching black trousers, although there is a trend to wearing striped trousers for funerals these days (the mourning suit), whereas in the past these were strictly reserved for festivities.

The length of the coat (jackets are short coats, unless you are French when a morning coat is une jacquette!) is to taste. Morning coats are traditionally cut shorter to end above the knees, but this has always changed to fashion and most Rundschau drafts show a coat that is knee length. I prefer my morning coats shorter, and they can look stylish ending 3-4" above the knee. Dress coats look better with a longer tail.

Don't fuss too much over the trousers. Single pleats look better as otherwise the pleats tend to bellow out under the cutaway front. Forward or reverse - it is really a matter of personal taste. Nobody in their right mind will castigate you for your choice of pleats, though mine is for Edwardian type of slim cut drainpipe trousers with none at all.

[Kelley]

If I may intrude for a moment - are there any books or other readings anyone might suggest for a history of formal day wear ?

If my friend were to follow this guide with the idea of being a wedding guest circa 1870-1900, would they be doing a great deal of wrong ?

I love research and history, anyway ! (However I have depleted the local library's resources)

[Sator]

For information on a period costume wedding, see the History of English Costume in the 19th Century by the Cunningtons, as well as Costumes for Births, Marriages & Deaths by Cunnington and Lucas. If you followed this modern guide and travelled back in time to an 1870-1900s wedding they would probably gasp with horror. You'd be sent home after being admonished by some matronly type who was "not amused" and told not to return until properly attired.

[culverwood]

A less expensive alternative to the Edward Green balmoral boot from WS Foster.

http://www.wsfoster....pID=485&image=0

[Floatinjoe]

Thank you everyone for your help with these questions.

I have decided that as nice as the silk braiding looks, due to cost and the fact that the coat will be more versatile without it, I will be leaving the braiding off.

I have heard of morning coats made with a pocket inside the lining of the tail, and that it is for racing forms. Does anyone have any images or diagrams of this? Also, what types of interior pockets should I ask for?

I have several questions regarding the waistcoat, but will start a separate thread for it.

Thank you again, and any additional information is appreciated.

Mike

[J. Maclochlainn]

Floatinjoe, on 05 November 2009 - 01:54 AM, said:

I have heard of morning coats made with a pocket inside the lining of the tail, and that it is for racing forms.

All Frocks and Morning coats I have examined have pockets in their pleats/ back vent so this seems pretty universal, atleast from a historical point of view. My extant Morning coats have an outside breast pocket, inside breast pocket, and pockets in the pleats. One has a cash pocket in the lining at the waist.

Jason

[Sator]

All body coats are made like this (except mess jackets) with a concealed pocket in the tails - dress, morning, frock coats.

This thread shows the construction details of the pocket:

http://www.cutterand...p?showtopic=361

[Kelley]

Sator, on 04 November 2009 - 01:49 PM, said:

For information on a period costume wedding, see the History of English Costume in the 19th Century by the Cunningtons, as well as Costumes for Births, Marriages & Deaths by Cunnington and Lucas. If you followed this modern guide and travelled back in time to an 1870-1900s wedding they would probably gasp with horror. You'd be sent home after being admonished by some matronly type who was "not amused" and told not to return until properly attired.

I think the library will either ban me from checking out that book, or just give it to me. If it wasn't so out of print, I would have bought it already.

It seems my friend is most likely going to have to actually spend money (the horror !) - not just raid my closet !