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#19 jcsprowls

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Posted 17 June 2010 - 06:56 AM

Yup. Triangulation is using two points to find a third. And, only direct measures will do.

For finding the shoulder slope, you take CB-Neck to shoulder; and, CB-Waist to shoulder. If you are drafting a jacket, you put the shoulder pad you will use in the jacket on the model and take those same measures.

If you've read some of my previous posts, you'll know I'm generally not a fan of derived calculations.
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#20 CoronarJunkee

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Posted 17 June 2010 - 07:29 AM

If you've read some of my previous posts, you'll know I'm generally not a fan of derived calculations.


Yes.

I'm actually getting all confused with you, JC. In my head you're the guy who drafts on autocad, who grades around, who standardises pattern pieces. And then, all the sudden, you come up with direct measures and stuff :-)

I have two questions, though, if I may, on your triangle thing :

- the back shoulder being longer than the front shoulder : do you triangulate with 1) your CB waist-shoulder point and 2) (CB neck - shoulder point)+ease OR
do you triangulate 1) and 2) (without ease) and then move out the point you got on a line squared out from the CB to keep the point at the same height while adding the ease?

- do you decide the location of your shoulder point while measuring or do you measure all around (CB waist - shoulder - CF waist) and then divide it somehow? if so, what proportion could one use? that would depend on the posture, of course...

I do measure CB waist- neckline at shoulder seam level (contemporary shoulder seam on the top of the shoulder) - CF waist. There I already decide on a position of the shoulder seam. If I decide on a position again for the shoulder point measure, I would fear my seam wouldn't be very straight since I'm eyeing its position twice...!

Maybe one could mark a seam position with chalk for measuring? Like it's advised in old cutting manuals for the shoulder measure points. But I rarely measure people wearing waistcoats and a chalk mark on a t-shirt isn't really a reliable absolute point.

Edited by CoronarJunkee, 17 June 2010 - 07:30 AM.


#21 jcsprowls

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Posted 17 June 2010 - 09:01 AM

CAD has nothing to do with proportional or direct measures. The mechanics of drafting are the same - the tools are different.

The objective is to locate where you want the seam to fall. If you want to add ease, you can. I don't. When I draft a shirt, the armhole seam falls to the outside of the acromion process. In the 80s, I did something different because dropped shoulders were the fashion. And, these other drafts also contain instructions that were relevant to their time period, as well.

I used to chalk marks on my customers (or, fitting models). But, that dependency went away with time. Your brain & eyes learn to see body landmarks as consistently as it measures a seam allowance. I was mentored by a tailor who was an acupuncture physician, so I learned to visualize/see acupuncture points through the clothing. It's strange how brains work. But, they can be extremely reliable when trained.

The back shoulder is not longer than the front shoulder. The angle of the front shoulder is different because the shoulder bows forward on the body. This is evidenced by the X-Fr being about 1/2" narrower than the X-Bk measurement. But, that affect the armhole curve.

If I were to measure CB-neck to shoulder point and CF-neck to shoulder point, I could use that information to locate the front shoulder point. But, there are other ways. What I do is copy the back piece and then measure from CF-waist to the front shoulder point and, change the angle of the front shoulder. Then, I correct the length of the front shoulder seam so it's the same length as the back piece (6 5/8" in this example), make changes to open the front armhole curve (X-Fr is narrower), open the front neckline, open a dart along the front waist to allow for a belly, etc.

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#22 CoronarJunkee

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Posted 17 June 2010 - 04:40 PM

Of course for a shirt, back shoulder and front shoulder are the same length since you want to create a yoke and place a dart in the seam. I asked that in general, for a jacket i.e. Or do you also draft the back armhole dart to allow for the blades and then make the pattern transformation to place the ease to the back shoulder?

This insight is very interesting! Thank you very much!

Another question now that you're talking about creating the front from the back: what woumd be your procedure for a stooping or erect figure where the front neck point would have to move up or down in relation to the back? Once you've decided on the shoulder point, you couldn't just open the pattern between chest and shoulder level to modify the length since your shoumder point is in an absolute position. I think I would move the front neck point on a vertical line according to the measurement I'm taking from CF waist and CB waist. What's your procedure for that?

I'm actually very intrigued. I tend to use all those direct measures to check a produced pattern and to modify it rather than using them too much in the drafting process itself... This here might change that.

Btw I'm aware that CAD is just another way of drafting. It's just that in my understanding you're working for the industry (but not only?) and I wondered where you get those measurements from. I'm not sure of course but I don't think it's likely to find them on the measurement charts companies provide about their target clientele...

Thanks again! I think I will update my measurement chart to add another few measures... I already take about 30...
Cheers!

David

#23 jcsprowls

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Posted 18 June 2010 - 01:08 AM

I asked that in general, for a jacket

Slightly different procedure. Finding the back SP and the incline of the shoulder is the same principle. You just need to put shoulder pads on the mannequin or model, first. Otherwise, you'll need to do more pattern alterations before you can get to a working draft.

In the case of a jacket, I'd strike my shoulder line before I added ease/length to it. Adding ease into the formula alters the incline. So, I open a dart to create fullness after the draft has been checked for balance. Then, I shape the back seam line based on the shoulder profile I intend to create.

For the shirt, I added a pleat over the shoulder blades after the draft has been checked for balance and the back yoke was sliced off. In the sample, above, I cutout a dart to improve the contour along the yoke seam. That was a fit/styling situation I recognized while drafting (i.e. clean back, slim sleeve silhouette).

what would be your procedure for a stooping or erect figure where the front neck point would have to move up or down in relation to the back?

Create the draft, then open darts where needed. In the case of scoliosis of the upper back, I'd open a dart that terminates around the middle of the scye.

I wondered where you get those measurements from

I have fitting models and dressforms to take measurements from. Plus, I also buy size studies, etc.

I'm attaching my measurement form. I don't take every measurement, it just depends on the garment type my clients work in. For example, I wouldn't take the Total Torso measurement unless I needed to make leotards, lingerie, swimwear or some other costume that passed through the crutch.

Measurement Form

Edited by jcsprowls, 18 June 2010 - 01:55 AM.

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#24 posaune

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Posted 18 June 2010 - 08:59 PM

Hi jcsprowls,

I like seeing your measuring form.
If you have the time and my questions are not to dumb could you explain me:

Shoulder circ: How do you measure this and why?
Across chest (4" down) Down from what?
I assume this form is only for men?
How do you measure for corpulence?
Lg
posaune

#25 jcsprowls

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Posted 19 June 2010 - 12:10 AM

Shoulder circ - I don't use. But, it is a standard measurement taken by sizing agencies, so it's on the form.
Across chest - between armpits 4" down from the high point shoulder (HPS; neckline/shoulder).

This form is universal. If I'm working for a womens' line, I add overbust, full bust and under-bust.

Corpulence or any other imbalance I measure in terms of arcs. So, if my model has a belly, I will measure the front waist, back waist and total waist.

Edited by jcsprowls, 19 June 2010 - 12:12 AM.

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#26 CoronarJunkee

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Posted 19 June 2010 - 01:19 AM

JC
Thanks for all your answers! I still have a question concerning front and back length and would like to make a drawing to e plain what I mean. I'm not at home right now and have no access to a scanner so I'll try to post my question on mo or tu.

Thanks a lot! Cheers
David

#27 CoronarJunkee

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Posted 22 June 2010 - 06:23 AM

JC, here I go.

I wondered about how to adjust the pattern for erect or stooping figures.

Here are my concerns about following the process described (while I might have misunderstood something about the order...).

First the process of basic applying of the measurements talked about as I understood it :

Posted Image

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And now the reason why I think I'm losing the advantage of that direct shoulder point measurement :

Posted Image

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And my turn on constructing the front from the back but applying a direct measurement to the front neck point :

Posted Image

Or another way of doing it :

Posted Image

Maybe the last option is what you actually meant, JC...
I'm quite looking forward to try that.
And one more question : how do you apply waist measure for a corpulent cut i.e. when constructing front pattern from back pattern? do you somehow construct "halves" (back half, front half, with a virtual side seam) and apply your direct front waist measure? And then swinging the upper front part open over the waist line to add length? (I would swing open until my neck point reaches the direct measure I take).
I feel like this construction method is a lot about slashing open, pushing around and making it "look right" for the given corpulence. Am I correct? If so, it really is exciting!

And now, I think I have asked enough. Time to try it out!

Thanks in advance
Cheers

David

#28 jcsprowls

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Posted 22 June 2010 - 09:03 AM

You don't add that dart in the yoke line then close it - you just remove the dart to make a flatter shirt. Step #2 is un-necessary. My sample had a dart in the yoke line because the shirt I was making had a slim fitting sleeve and, experientially, I knew where the dart needed to be to do that.

If you're making a shirt for a stooped figure. You make the back block, copy it over and make the front block. Then, you modify the pieces by opening a dart on the back; and, closing a dart on the front.

Making a front from the back only works for garments that quarter the body (e.g. shirts). For jackets, you can use the triangulation to find the shoulder slope. If you want to create room for the shoulder blade, you slice through the shoulder slope down past the armhole depth and open a dart in the shoulder line (e.g. 3/8" to 5/8").

I don't spend too much time plotzing over the first draft. I need to get to a working garment so I can spend time fitting and styling it. Some fitting problems and styling can be handled at the drafting table (e.g. the dart in the yoke line). But, it's also a rabbit hole trying to perfect a draft you're going to fit, anyway. I'd rather fit a garment, take the garment apart and adjust the pattern before remaking the garment.

If I were making a shirt for a corpulent figure, I open a dart under the waistline to add length to the front and alter the angle of the curve of the sideseam. When I fit the garment, I may need to put in a complementary dart to change the angle of the sideseam, again, if the front panel is too blousy.
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#29 CoronarJunkee

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Posted 22 June 2010 - 09:18 AM

I was more talking about a jacket here rather than a shirt. (that's why there's step 2)

Since I use to often work with old cutting systems (stage costumes) or enlarged historical patterns, I'm very used to the "we'll see that later while fitting" method.
But I'll soon work for the first time for an opera production with a huge choir where I can't afford to take every second garment apart again after the fitting. Fittings will be for lengths and sleeve settings, maybe width at the CB seam. That's why I'm kind of interested in using more direct measures and I want to try out your triangulation system.

Maybe I should just try how I can get the most out of it. I use to want to know how people do things not to copy them but to see what of their method would suit me, combined with the things I already do anyways.

Thank you again, JC, for sharing your method. I'm really grateful for it gives me a whole new perspective for my future work in drafting (sounds big but for me it is a totally new approach, just as I discovered all the fuss about the shoulder measures. These I really don't get along with but your triangulation I like!)

Cheers

David

#30 hst

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Posted 01 September 2010 - 12:57 AM

To measure the slope of the shoulder, we use a digital protractor and place that on top of the shoulder and the reading can be taken out immediately.


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#31 Sator

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Posted 01 September 2010 - 01:00 AM

^ That's an interesting idea. I've never heard of such an instrument. I might look into it.

Thanks for sharing.

#32 Nula

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Posted 06 September 2010 - 12:54 PM

A digital protractor...handy. I use a protractor with a movable ruler arm (well, it's in nautical miles - I got it off a boat!) that spins about its central axis. But it is very good to measure degrees, which is what I use for the shoulder slope. If only it came with a built-in level...though it looks as though my vintage boating paraphenalia has been usurped by technology!

#33 hst

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Posted 08 September 2010 - 12:17 PM

This digital protractor already have a built in level, it measures the angle from horizontal up. So it just a matter of placing the protractor on the shoulder and the reading will be read from the display. See my article on using the angle measurement to draft the shirt yoke. http://www.hst.com.s...fect_shirt.html .

#34 james_tailor

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Posted 27 November 2010 - 11:06 PM

Thank you very much!!!

#35 Yenting.C

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Posted 16 December 2010 - 03:22 AM

on basic sleeve sloper. how do I calculate the "CAP HEIGHT", have I missed something?

#36 amateursarto

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Posted 21 December 2010 - 02:05 PM

YC, the cap height is difference between the sleeve center line length and the underarm seam length.
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